It could happen to you (but we hope not)

[TikiTech]

Hello Again,

After watching the video, way too many times, I believe the damage occurred at the 2:30 mark in the video. Team 1339 was defending the robot that was about to receive the inbound of the ball. Their pickup was all the way over on the opposite side of where they were pushing. Another red alliance robot came up and delivered a hit, probably trying to run counter defense. You can see 1339 arm was fine prior as they used it to score the one point goal a few moments prior. Then after the hit, which lifted part of the robot off the ground, you can see the arm drooping.
The robot that did hit 1339 was not extending anything at the time, but did hit their pickup arm, inside THEIR own perimeter, which you can see afterwards 1339 arm is hanging crooked. The damage might be inside the frame but was caused by too much stress on the pickup that was outside the frame perimeter breaking a weaker junction inside the robot.

Sad to see this, but at least you can see that it wasn't intentional nor were the opposing team inside team 1339 frame...

Lesson learned.. DO NOT LEAVE ANYTHING OUTSIDE YOUR PERIMETER! Especially if you are running defense.. Very tempting to make a new Lexan pickup for this very reason...

Good luck!

Aloha

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by TikiTech

Hello Again,

After watching the video, way too many times, I believe the damage occurred at the 2:30 mark in the video. Team 1339 was defending the robot that was about to receive the inbound of the ball. Their pickup was all the way over on the opposite side of where they were pushing. Another red alliance robot came up and delivered a hit, probably trying to run counter defense. You can see 1339 arm was fine prior as they used it to score the one point goal a few moments prior. Then after the hit, which lifted part of the robot off the ground, you can see the arm drooping.
The robot that did hit 1339 was not extending anything at the time, but did hit their pickup arm, inside THEIR own perimeter, which you can see afterwards 1339 arm is hanging crooked. The damage might be inside the frame but was caused by too much stress on the pickup that was outside the frame perimeter breaking a weaker junction inside the robot.

Sad to see this, but at least you can see that it wasn't intentional nor were the opposing team inside team 1339 frame...

Lesson learned.. DO NOT LEAVE ANYTHING OUTSIDE YOUR PERIMETER! Especially if you are running defense.. Very tempting to make a new Lexan pickup for this very reason...

Good luck!

Aloha

In an attempt to keep the arm from ramming into the robot in front of them someone came up the backside and smashed into it. Looks like our brogrammers need to get a button that centers the arm in a vertical position.

[IronicDeadBird]

Why would you ram an opposing robot into your team mate as a defensive action?

P.S
I heard there was HD video of this match floating around that ought to be a nice substitute to netflix for once...

[Team1339]

The issue that we have with this situation is not with the damage to our robot, or the other teams on our alliance or the opposing alliance. We knew the risks that we were taking when we designed it the way that we did, and we even, stupidly, Used the .04 in thick 1x1 versaframe as the main structure for the arm. Our issue was with the reffing and foul calls throughout the event. There were more times than I could count that no fouls were called for direct inner frame contact between robots. All teams involved were very helpful, and it was a pleasure to drive with and against all teams involved. Even in the pits, trying to get the bot back together, I looked up from pulling the structure apart to see one of 399's team members with his arms elbow deep in the robot, helping. 1619 lent us drill bits, boxes and manpower. Our Alliance partners helped, and so did teams that had nothing to do with it, Like 2996, The Cougars Gone Wired. I came out of it incredibly impressed with the teams and students involved in first, and the incredible gracious professionalism that everyone involved displayed. My apologies if I came across the wrong way.

[Qcom]

Well, that explains quite a bit. I was watching the stream and became quite confused over this situation. For the record, I think that you are correct: There were some gaffes on the part of the refs, and time constraints pushed the decisions toward the quickest form of resolution, rather than the best one, at the end of this series of unfortunate events. Of course I am a biased and relatively uninformed observer, so my opinion in this matter should be taken with a grain of salt.

In terms of robot ruggedness, I really feel for those who have received the short end of the stick and experienced damage on the field. Our 2013 Bot was forced to drop out of the national competition last year due to such circumstances.

I can't wait to meet up with 1410 and all the northern CO teams again in Denver. Hang tight and stay focused, there are some great bots this year that have a real shot at nationals!

[evanatch]

It's nice to hear a firsthand account of what happened - we were in the queuing lines when most of this was happening and so I had only heard snippets of what was going on. I know this was a tough situation for both teams, so kudos on handling it graciously.

This is perhaps the most extreme example of inconsistent refereeing that plagued Utah throughout the weekend. Refs have a lot to keep track of in this game, and it's hard to get the rulings consistent every time. Nonetheless, this was a situation where foul mix-ups had a huge affect on the course of eliminations, and we should work to reduce that as much as possible.

We look forward to competing with you, Angelbotics, and many more great teams again at the Colorado regional, and sincerely hope Angelbotics will be up and running at 100% after taking some seriously massive damage.

[shhrz]

Everyone seems to be ignoring the elephant in the room by being polite, so I'll point to it. There might be something I'm missing, but based on what I have read here so far... it seems pretty disturbing.

Can anyone from the Red Alliance not own up to their action of saying they can complete a 60 point cycle in 8 seconds??

I'm sure everyone who has watched the game so far is aware that is not a possible feat, let alone with defense being played on you... I don't know, but in my opinion even saying that is just ungracious at accepting the fact that you were beat by a better alliance.

What I find strange, is that the OP (I think) says the opposite alliance was very gracious and helped out with the fixes. So mabye this is more of a mentor issue (since the OP says THEY were the ones in the conversation)? I don't know ... something smells bad to me.

Perhaps I'm being overly pessemistic, and perhaps I'm only hearing one side of the story, but from the way it looks... well. I know if I were the Blue Alliance I would be just as frustrated to go out on a claim like that, regardless of the ref's decisions.

EDIT: Of course, and just to be clear, I'm waiting on a reply from the Red Alliance before I, personally, make up my mind.

[mrnoble]

One very big reason why you haven't seen the interested parties (me being one of them) say accusatory things about the Red Alliance teams is that we know and value the people who run those teams, as well as the students on them. It was a very difficult situation that occurred at a rapid pace under very extraordinary circumstances. Notice that when I pointed out how bizarre it was to have mentors talking to the head ref, I didn't indignantly refuse to join them; I was right there with them! And the only request we ever got to do anything different was from the head safety advisor, who set up cones for us to stand behind just to keep us out of traffic. I cannot get inside the heads of our opponents but I do know that on the field we played just as hard as they did, and off the field they have been compassionate and helpful. The ones among the mentors I have gotten to know over the years are my friends and I value that enough that I won't throw this in their faces. And I'm not small enough to be bitter about this anyway; what would that accomplish, other than ulcers for me, broken relationships, and students who learn to hold grudges? I see this as a problem in the game logistics, and I want everyone to know about it so that we can fix the problem in the future, for other teams. That's all.

[shhrz]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

One very big reason why you haven't seen the interested parties (me being one of them) say accusatory things about the Red Alliance teams is that we know and value the people who run those teams, as well as the students on them. It was a very difficult situation that occurred at a rapid pace under very extraordinary circumstances. Notice that when I pointed out how bizarre it was to have mentors talking to the head ref, I didn't indignantly refuse to join them; I was right there with them! And the only request we ever got to do anything different was from the head safety advisor, who set up cones for us to stand behind just to keep us out of traffic. I cannot get inside the heads of our opponents but I do know that on the field we played just as hard as they did, and off the field they have been compassionate and helpful. The ones among the mentors I have gotten to know over the years are my friends and I value that enough that I won't throw this in their faces. And I'm not small enough to be bitter about this anyway; what would that accomplish, other than ulcers for me, broken relationships, and students who learn to hold grudges? I see this as a problem in the game logistics, and I want everyone to know about it so that we can fix the problem in the future, for other teams. That's all.

Well, I find it funny/strange/not very polite when people here are complaining about the ref's (not you, neccesarily), when this would not have happened in the first place had the Red Alliance not claimed they can do a 60-point cycle in 8 seconds.

They may be great people (in fact, I beleive that they are), and great friends. Just saying that they should own up to, at least in my opinion, their mistake - which hurt (at the end of the day) your students.

The fact that you should teach your students all you said (and I agree), does not take anything away from what I wrote above (again, in my opinon).

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Nathan Streeter

The not-calling-a-dead-ball-when-a-blue-ball-fell-into-a-red-robot? Well, if they had called it after 2-5 seconds, and the ball had immediately freed, the blue alliance could fairly feel frustrated that they now had to remove that dead ball and regain their assists on the new ball. Dead ball's aren't actually "Get out of Jail Free" cards... they come at a cost.

This is false.* A ball stuck in an opposing robot is supposed to be declared dead by the head ref, and if/when freed, becomes field debris. The alliance that owned the ball is under no obligation to free it. It is, in fact, a get out of jail card, which is makes sense, as it's not the owning alliance's fault.

If an ALLIANCE’S BALL becomes stuck in an opposing ALLIANCE’S ROBOT, the Head Referee will signal an extended infraction of G12 (the assumption is that the ALLIANCE has already been penalized for the initial G12 infraction). At this point, the Head Referee will suspend the current CYCLE and re-illuminate the PEDESTAL, beginning another CYCLE for that ALLIANCE. If the stuck BALL is freed, that ball will be considered FIELD debris. [emphasis mine]

Originally Posted by Nathan Streeter

Really though, that a match was replayed over 8 seconds lost at the pedestal is a very significant thing. We can all agree here that 8 seconds are often lost at the pedestal... it could happen for a host of reasons and I'm guessing most matches unfortunately have at least one instance of an 8-second pedestal-delay. Even more baffling is the concept that a 60-point cycle was missed in those 8 seconds. There's a thread on CD about the perfect cycle. If one had been accomplished by any alliance in only 8 seconds (including inbound time), then we'd all be sitting here congratulating the successful alliance.

This is really what gets me. HQ thought that that was a good idea? Seriously?

*EDIT: Sorry, this sounds harsher than I intended.

[Nathan Streeter]

Originally Posted by Siri

This is false.* A ball stuck in an opposing robot is supposed to be declared dead by the head ref, and if/when freed, becomes field debris. The alliance that owned the ball is under no obligation to free it. It is, in fact, a get out of jail card, which is makes sense, as it's not the owning alliance's fault.

If an ALLIANCE’S BALL becomes stuck in an opposing ALLIANCE’S ROBOT, the Head Referee will signal an extended infraction of G12 (the assumption is that the ALLIANCE has already been penalized for the initial G12 infraction). At this point, the Head Referee will suspend the current CYCLE and re-illuminate the PEDESTAL, beginning another CYCLE for that ALLIANCE. If the stuck BALL is freed, that ball will be considered FIELD debris. [emphasis mine]

Thanks for correcting me here... I forgot dead balls stuck in an opponent's robot are handled differently. :-)

[Lil' Lavery]

I'm glad to see so many people stepping up to help pay these volunteer refs for the month off from work they'll be taking to attend training, and ensuring that we have a mimimum of 9 refs at each and every event. It's great to see a community put their money where their mouth is this way!

[Nathan Streeter]

Thanks for writing a very thorough post that (seems) to do a good job of trying to relate the whole debacle from a neutral standpoint. Issues like this have turned into flame-fests before... so far this thread has done well to remain a tempered discussion, focused more on "wow, that situation is overwhelmingly unfortunate - no one involved had an easy time!"

It seems like while the refing at Utah wasn't perfect (just as it never is), the only really big blunder was the decision to replay match 2 over 8 seconds lost at the pedestal.

The not-calling-a-dead-ball-when-a-blue-ball-fell-into-a-red-robot? Well, if they had called it after 2-5 seconds, and the ball had immediately freed, the blue alliance could fairly feel frustrated that they now had to remove that dead ball and regain their assists on the new ball. Dead ball's aren't actually "Get out of Jail Free" cards... they come at a cost.

The decision to re-play QF1-2 immediately rather than waiting for the originally intended QF1-3 slot? An unfortunate decision, but one that if you're simply following the letter of the rules sounds like the right decision. I believe every replay I've seen has been played in a subsequent slot. The timeout shouldn't have been allowed (but they should've given you the timeout coupon back) because it needs to be called within 2 minutes of when the green lights go up on the goals after the prior match. It sounds like this discussion carried on for 5-20 minutes, not 2.

The decision to call no tech foul for inside-the-perimter-zone damage? Very reasonable, given that a ref didn't see a case where the red alliance instigated the damaging contact. Perhaps the refs should've watched more closely, but it sounds like the damage may not have been red-alliance-initiated.

Really though, that a match was replayed over 8 seconds lost at the pedestal is a very significant thing. We can all agree here that 8 seconds are often lost at the pedestal... it could happen for a host of reasons and I'm guessing most matches unfortunately have at least one instance of an 8-second pedestal-delay. Even more baffling is the concept that a 60-point cycle was missed in those 8 seconds. There's a thread on CD about the perfect cycle. If one had been accomplished by any alliance in only 8 seconds (including inbound time), then we'd all be sitting here congratulating the successful alliance.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a 60-point cycle in 8 seconds is impossible... I'm sure if you got the right three robots together and they practiced it a dozen times, you could get a couple times from pedestal-to-goal of 8 seconds. This would probably involve an inbounding bot that could truss from where they inbound, a catcher that could spit the ball out towards the goals, and a scorer that needed only to suck the ball in and shoot (no adjusting involved).

Thanks for "keeping it GP" - I wish you the best of luck in your upcoming events! Glad to see you all get another shot!

[mrnoble]

As the head coach of 1339, I'd like to clarify my take on the damage. I posted on one of the Utah threads what I will essentially repeat here: the damage happened not as a deliberate effort by any team or driver, and that it is questionable to ME that it was due to perimeter incursion. Rather, the rough nature of the game with the open field, combined with overwhelmed refs who either call too many or too few fouls (depending on who is asked), and a weak spot in our frame design, all led to the end of our run in eliminations. I think that a careful look at the photos of the damage should satisfy people (including my students) that something like this might have occurred at some point in the season anyway. No matter. We'll rebuild the frame stronger before the colorado regional and be a better team for it.

Aside from this issue, I am in complete agreement with the OP. The replay match should never have happened, and a series of errors and poor decisions led to this unfortunate breakdown. It can't be undone, but I hope this thread opens up the possibility that nothing like it will happen again. For my part, I would argue for there being THREE more refs on the field to prevent more unseen fouls and faults, as well as intensive training for all refs on the rules and field protocol. The thing I am most astonished at remains the fact that at no point was I or any of the other mentors told that we should never have been able to intervene as we did. I joined in late and was flummoxed to see mentors talking to the head ref at all.

I have the utmost respect for the drive teams of 399 and 1619. The battle between the drive bases of 1339, 399 and 1619 was amazing to watch, and I know you played your hearts out. My team drivers know how deeply I respect them too. But we have been reached out to by the fine students of our on-field opponents and they have been really kind and supportive. That makes this, in my mind, an event that forged fine young men and women of character, and not just a comedy of errors.

[Team1339]

Originally Posted by TikiTech

Hello Again,

After watching the video, way too many times, I believe the damage occurred at the 2:30 mark in the video. Team 1339 was defending the robot that was about to receive the inbound of the ball. Their pickup was all the way over on the opposite side of where they were pushing. Another red alliance robot came up and delivered a hit, probably trying to run counter defense. You can see 1339 arm was fine prior as they used it to score the one point goal a few moments prior. Then after the hit, which lifted part of the robot off the ground, you can see the arm drooping.
The robot that did hit 1339 was not extending anything at the time, but did hit their pickup arm, inside THEIR own perimeter, which you can see afterwards 1339 arm is hanging crooked. The damage might be inside the frame but was caused by too much stress on the pickup that was outside the frame perimeter breaking a weaker junction inside the robot.

Sad to see this, but at least you can see that it wasn't intentional nor were the opposing team inside team 1339 frame...

Lesson learned.. DO NOT LEAVE ANYTHING OUTSIDE YOUR PERIMETER! Especially if you are running defense.. Very tempting to make a new Lexan pickup for this very reason...

Good luck!

Aloha

I can see why you would think that. However, the hit that you are referring to only exacerbated the damage that had already been done, at almost exactly the 1:38 mark in the video. 399's intake slams down on our tower, when our arm is on the opposite side of the robot, as they prepare for a truss shoot.