Red robot pushes in blue ball?

[jblay]

From 3.1.4 in the manual

A BALL is considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S GOAL if

-a ROBOT causes one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S BALLS to cross completely and remain completely through the opening(s) of one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S GOALS without intervening TEAM member contact,
-the ALLIANCE ROBOT last in contact with the BALL was entirely between the TRUSS and their ALLIANCE’S HIGH GOALS, and
-the BALL is not in contact with any ROBOT from that ALLIANCE.

I have seen balls be pushed into the low goal by the opposing robots this year a few times. With the way the rules are written it seems like this should not count as a goal, but it has been scored as one. I hope I'm missing something, but it did occur to me while watching some match tape and I couldn't find anything in the manual that contradicted it.

[kenavt]

Originally Posted by jblay

From 3.1.4 in the manual


I have seen balls be pushed into the low goal by the opposing robots this year a few times. With the way the rules are written it seems like this should not count as a goal, but it has been scored as one. I hope I'm missing something, but it did occur to me while watching some match tape and I couldn't find anything in the manual that contradicted it.

At the event I worked as field reset, the Head Ref told the field reset crew personally that a ball "scored in the wrong goal" is still a ball in play, and needs to be returned to the nearest human player (in that situation, the one that is "inbounding" - has access to the pedestal).

Another event I spectated at, this was also the procedure followed.

[jblay]

Originally Posted by kenavt

At the event I worked as field reset, the Head Ref told the field reset crew personally that a ball "scored in the wrong goal" is still a ball in play, and needs to be returned to the nearest human player (in that situation, the one that is "inbounding" - has access to the pedestal).

Another event I spectated at, this was also the procedure followed.

I'm not talking about a blue ball entering a red goal. I'm talking about a red robot pushing a blue ball into a blue goal. As the rules are written, this seems like it shouldn't count.

[FrankJ]

If a blue alliance robot had touch the ball beyond the truss, it meets the definition for scored. If the red robot processed the blue ball, it would be scored & a red penalty.

[IndySam]

But a red robot pushing a blue ball into a blue goal should get a penalty for possession.

[Canon reeves]

It might even count as trapping too?

[bkahl]

This happened to 195 at Groton. The ball was not scored and was returned into play after about 10 seconds of confusion.

[MrBasse]

a ROBOT causes one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S BALLS to cross completely...

if the blue team pushes in a red ball it shouldn't count as scored but there should be a possession penalty on blue. Key word in bold above.

There was a discussion about this earlier where a team pushed an opponent into their own ball forcing it into their low goal. There was a direct action by the scoring alliance in that case. Here it seems the question is simply an opponent doing something that they shouldn't be doing.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

If a blue alliance robot had touch the ball beyond the truss, it meets the definition for scored. If the red robot processed the blue ball, it would be scored & a red penalty.

It fails to meet the first point, "a ROBOT causes one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S BALLS to cross completely and remain completely through the opening(s) of one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S GOALS without intervening TEAM member contact"

The robot that caused the action was causing one of their opponents balls to cross, etc.

Originally Posted by IndySam

But a red robot pushing a blue ball into a blue goal should get a penalty for possession.

A single bump of the wrong color ball generally is not considered possession... what if it was just a single bump that happened to send it into the goal? I would doubt (in most cases, at least) that the red robot would actually be trying to score the blue ball for the blue alliance! I do agree, however, that a penalty is probably warranted - if the ball is re-entered into play for this scenario, then the alliance's cycle is interrupted/delayed. If it isn't, it's possible the alliance missed out on assist/high goal points for that cycle.


While I think it's clear in the rules that it shouldn't count as a goal, I would guess it's being counted as one most of the time, due to the general understanding of goal scoring (In soccer, basketball, or hockey it doesn't matter who causes the score - as soon as the game piece is in the net/goal, it's a score).

[jblay]

The two most common cases I have seen are a team accidentally pushing it in because they are trying to get between their opponent and the ball, and a team pushing their opponent into the ball and getting the ball in which has been mentioned in the thread already.

Either way it seems like these shouldn't count, but by the spirit of the game I feel like it should count. It's just worded in a way that would make it not count and I hope that a team update could clarify.

[BBray_T1296]

We plowed an opponent into the ball, pushing our ball into our goal. (I have GoPro footage) Even though we never touched it, I would almost argue in this situation that since we had nearly complete control over the opposing robot (directionally) we were the one who "caused the ball [to enter the goal]" by proxy. They were (unsuccessfully) driving forward against us and the fact that we moved them in reverse would show that it was our actions that moved the ball

[Clinton Bolinger]

Another potential rule that needs to be considered would be:

G11
BALLS may not be intentionally or repeatedly ejected from gameplay.

Violation: FOUL per instance.

If Blue has 3 assist on the board, from a strategic standpoint, it would be in Reds best interest to put the ball in the low goal. That way the ball is out of play and has to go to the nearest human player to be inbounded again. Which is valuable time wasted.

From a spectator's point of view it makes no sense why that ball should not be considered a score. The only reason this rule exist is because the GDC did not want team's to Full Court Shoot over the Truss.

I still believe that if a Blue Robot pushes a Red Robot into a Blue Ball and the Blue Ball goes into the Blue Low Goal, it should count as a Blue Score. The Blue Robot caused the ball to go into the goal, which meets requirement 3.1.4 - 1.

a ROBOT causes one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S BALLS to cross completely and remain completely through the opening(s) of one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S GOALS without intervening TEAM member contact

-Clinton-

[FrankJ]

a ROBOT causes one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S BALLS to cross completely...

I missed that part. I like my way better though. As difficult as this game is to score in real time, I can see the referee simplifying it. I would hope they would be consistent in the call through out the tournament though.

[Evan W]

The other thing that I have seen is a robot shooting their ball over the truss and it bouncing into their low goal. It seems like this should not be counted as a goal by the rules posted in this thread.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by jblay

From 3.1.4 in the manual


I have seen balls be pushed into the low goal by the opposing robots this year a few times. With the way the rules are written it seems like this should not count as a goal, but it has been scored as one. I hope I'm missing something, but it did occur to me while watching some match tape and I couldn't find anything in the manual that contradicted it.

How about herding - gotta have some pretty purposeful motion to pop that ball up and into the front of the 1-point goal, eh?

No fouls were levied against the red alliance in the following situation - not for directing the ball toward the blue goal initially, nor for pushing it through the front of the goal.

Here is video of the match (thanks again, 2252). It is clear to this set of eyeballs that red was not under duress and purposely HERDED our blue ball into the goal, with no help from blue - http://youtu.be/nOGNdYU0dNs?t=57s

It is also clear that the referee was looking directly at this action the whole time, and failed to act.

Here are the head referee's exact words related to this red alliance action - "That particular match, if we are talking about the same occurrence, was definitely followed by a lengthy discussion between your driver, 829’s driver, and I. Our interpretation was that the team bumped the ball one direction (towards the driver station), then in a different direction (towards your goal). Because the pushing/bumping led the ball in different directions, we considered the bumps separate and, therefore, not repeated and not herding. As for them “scoring” your ball in the low goal, we did not see them break the plane of your alliance’s low goal. We did notice that your alliance robot(s) were in the area, and while engaged in a pushing match with the opponent, the ball was forced into the low goal. There is no rule against such an occasion. The definition of scoring (3.1.4) does not specify that the robot scoring be from the offensive alliance."

Video evidence is a heck of a thing, ain't it? :-) It's also fun when you can overhear the people taping the vid call out the infraction from the very top of the bleachers.

Regarding the ball being scored or not scored - if the blue alliance above needed a 10 point goal plus assists to win the match, I do not like that the defensive alliance could use a 1-point goal score as a defensive maneuver without repercussion.

Calling herding for pushing the ball into the goal mitigates this unfairness. Yeah we get 1-point instead of 10, but thank you very much for the 50 points as well. Maybe you won't try doing it ever again now.