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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-03-2014, 13:18
weatherdt weatherdt is offline
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

There is excellent video from this match found here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dfjmny25g...ll-final-2.mp4

The ball enters the red goal at 3:32 and you don't see a human player with a red ball until 3:59--27 seconds later. The referees were probably open to the possibility of a full cycle with a catch because a catch had happened twice at the event (and I believe the alliance robots that did an earlier truss and the catch were actually on this red alliance).

Cycles can be extremely fast too--20-30 seconds is reasonable for a perfect cycle. Unfortunately, there is also the issue that a dead ball was not called immediately on the blue stuck ball, which is probably also contributed to the need for a replay.
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Unread 18-03-2014, 13:30
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shhrz View Post
Just to recap what I said earlier - that the Red Alliance should own up to their claim that they could achieve a 60-point cycle in 8 seconds, since that is, to me - un-GP, in the sense that it is unrealistic and eventually led to the Blue Alliance losing instead of winning.
The red alliance has no burden on them to explain anything. It's completely ridiculous for you to call them out under the guise of being anti-GP.

399 won the Chairman's award two weeks ago, and I'd wager they probably did it based on merit.

They also hit two 60 point cycles WITH NO PRACTICE super quick at their last regional.

Think what you want, but they don't owe an explanation to anybody.

Last edited by AdamHeard : 18-03-2014 at 16:33.
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Unread 18-03-2014, 13:31
aldaeron aldaeron is offline
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OWilliamson View Post
I will however clarify a little on your point b. I know that you had no way of knowing what was going on with our bot, so I can understand why you thought this.

Yes we did disable our shooter. We removed our surgical tubing and zip-tied it down because it wasn't working reliably and it was making our life a bit of a pain. However, our intake was still working perfectly fine at the beginning of eliminations and could pick up the ball and knock it back out. That was why most of the matches we inbounded then spit the ball back out.
Thanks for the clarification. All we had was the scouting photo of your bot from Thursday and it looked a lot different in the match.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OWilliamson View Post
I hope that your team has no hard feelings against me or my team. We were out there just trying to play our best. If you have any more concerns feel free to PM me and we can discuss it in more detail. I respect your team and I wish you guys the best of luck at your next regional. I will definitely be rooting for you guys.
We don't have any hard feelings - it was very obvious that it was a weird bounce that caused the ball to get lodged into your bot. I have seen a few other posts on various threads where it has happened to others as well. It was an unusual situation and the intent of the original post was to inform and discuss.

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Unread 18-03-2014, 13:56
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

One thing that was brought up to me when I showed a friend the pictures is that the amount of damage sustained on the robot was incredible. The fact that we were safely able to remove it from the field in one piece was fantastic. Our shooter design is simple and most of the moving parts I would call "dangerous" are very well contained. Compressed air is kept underneath lexan shielding, high speed belts kept inside the arms frame. I heard and saw a lot of robots with mechanisms that looked like they were ready to explode and I would ask all teams make sure that even in a state of catastrophic failure your robot does not put anyone at risk. Regardless of how we view the staff, volunteers, and even other teams at FIRST nobody should ever get hurt.
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Unread 18-03-2014, 14:00
shhrz shhrz is offline
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

[quote=AdamHeard;1360906]
Quote:
Originally Posted by shhrz View Post
Just to recap what I said earlier - that the Red Alliance should own up to their claim that they could achieve a 60-point cycle in 8 seconds, since that is, to me - un-GP, in the sense that it is unrealistic and eventually led to the Blue Alliance losing instead of winning.
/QUOTE]

The red alliance has no burden on them to explain anything. It's completely ridiculous for you to call them out under the guise of being anti-GP.

399 won the Chairman's award two weeks ago, and I'd wager they probably did it based on merit.

They also hit two 60 point cycles WITH NO PRACTICE super quick at their last regional.

Think what you want, but they don't owe an explanation to anybody.
I think it is absolutely antiGP if that was the case. Sugarcoat all you want - for an alliance to do that is purely antiGP. Even if it was an alliance consisting of 3 CMP Chairman's winners.

HOWEVER, I went ahead and said, quite clearly by the way, that I am in fact NOT calling it out as such, and waiting for their own response.

I did also say, that by the version of events, as stated at the time of my post, the issue of going out and saying how the refs/FIRST HQ are to blame, while ignoring the other issue, is purely wrong - and the elephant, as unpleasant and unprobable as it is (also written), needs to be addressed.

I think I also don't owe anybody an explanation, you included. My post was NOT calling anyone out, but rather stating an obvious fact (at the time) that everyone perferred to ignore.

Now, however, that the Red Alliance have spoken (or at least a member of, in PM, to me - and not accusing at all (since I assume they saw my post just as they SHOULD have)), I placed another post with how they saw the events and my apologies if they interperted my earlier post as a bash against them.
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Unread 18-03-2014, 15:09
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Nate Bloom Nate Bloom is offline
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

This thread has put a huge emphasis on the 8 second/24 second pedestal delay, but this isn't at the heart of the problem.

First, 2594 did not have any functional mechanisms during this match as discussed earlier in this thread (again, no hard feelings with them). Refs at Utah were not consistent with counting any sort of possession that did not involve a robot mechanism (such as pushing the ball), so chances are that the alliance could not get the third assist in their cycles that match.

More importantly, we were not given a ball while our ball was stuck in 2594. They held our ball for 43 seconds, during which we were never given another ball.

If an ALLIANCE’S BALL becomes stuck in an opposing ALLIANCE’S ROBOT, the Head Referee will signal an extended infraction of G12 (the assumption is that the ALLIANCE has already been penalized for the initial G12 infraction). At this point, the Head Referee will suspend the current CYCLE and re-illuminate the PEDESTAL, beginning another CYCLE for that ALLIANCE. If the stuck BALL is freed, that ball will be considered FIELD debris. [bold emphasis mine]

Looking at the video weatherdt posted, there were at least 30 seconds where the ball was clearly stuck in 2594 and we were not given another ball.

I don't think that the red alliance was wrong in asking for a re-play from their point of view, but I also don't think that there was enough reason for there to be a replay from the refs point of view.
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2014 Colorado Regional Finalists (2996, 1410, 662)
2014 Utah Regional Quarterfinalists (1410, 1339, 3669)
2013 Colorado Regional Finalists - Entrepeneurship (2996, 1410, 662)
2013 Utah Regional Quarterfinalists - Imagery (3374, 1410, 3405)
2012 Colorado Regional Quarterfinalists - Imagery (1410, 1619, 3200)
2011 Colorado Regional Quarterfinalists (443, 1410, 1245)

Last edited by Nate Bloom : 18-03-2014 at 15:28.
  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-03-2014, 16:28
aldaeron aldaeron is offline
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

Was able to grab some high def videos from the dropbox folder listed above.

These show the matches in much better resolution and from a fixed perspective.

QF 1-1 in HD: http://youtu.be/6D3iGm1dPTw

QF 1-2 in HD: http://youtu.be/6hWwZg8LzV4

QF 1-2 Replay in HD: http://youtu.be/IYPGWnC39vg

QF 1-3 in HD: http://youtu.be/Aw_EQ48RRSo
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Unread 18-03-2014, 17:06
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Bloom View Post
This thread has put a huge emphasis on the 8 second/24 second pedestal delay, but this isn't at the heart of the problem.

First, 2594 did not have any functional mechanisms during this match as discussed earlier in this thread (again, no hard feelings with them). Refs at Utah were not consistent with counting any sort of possession that did not involve a robot mechanism (such as pushing the ball), so chances are that the alliance could not get the third assist in their cycles that match.
By this logic, they should not have been able to get possession of your ball, either. Whether or not the opposing alliance feels they could get possession is irrelevant to if a match should be replayed due to a field fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Bloom View Post
More importantly, we were not given a ball while our ball was stuck in 2594. They held our ball for 43 seconds, during which we were never given another ball.

If an ALLIANCE’S BALL becomes stuck in an opposing ALLIANCE’S ROBOT, the Head Referee will signal an extended infraction of G12 (the assumption is that the ALLIANCE has already been penalized for the initial G12 infraction). At this point, the Head Referee will suspend the current CYCLE and re-illuminate the PEDESTAL, beginning another CYCLE for that ALLIANCE. If the stuck BALL is freed, that ball will be considered FIELD debris. [bold emphasis mine]

Looking at the video weatherdt posted, there were at least 30 seconds where the ball was clearly stuck in 2594 and we were not given another ball.

I don't think that the red alliance was wrong in asking for a re-play from their point of view, but I also don't think that there was enough reason for there to be a replay from the refs point of view.
If anything, that increases the need for a replay of the match.
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Unread 18-03-2014, 17:42
Racer26 Racer26 is offline
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

As an observer?

I'd bet big money the red pedestal took so long to light up after that goal, as the refs were focussed on the blue BALL stuck in 2594 to see what to do about it.

I would argue that the delay in lighting the pedestal for red, and the quantity of time 2594 held the blue ball (when the ref's ought to have declared it dead) were roughly equal, and so neither alliance had an advantage as a result.

However, both probably constitute a FIELD FAULT and thus the match ought to have been replayed.
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Unread 18-03-2014, 18:33
Sparkyshires Sparkyshires is offline
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

I would just like to say that the gracious proffessionalism by EVERYONE in this thread has impressed me. FIRST has seriously done something amazing with this organization.
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Unread 18-03-2014, 20:16
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer26 View Post
As an observer?

I'd bet big money the red pedestal took so long to light up after that goal, as the refs were focussed on the blue BALL stuck in 2594 to see what to do about it.

I would argue that the delay in lighting the pedestal for red, and the quantity of time 2594 held the blue ball (when the ref's ought to have declared it dead) were roughly equal, and so neither alliance had an advantage as a result.

However, both probably constitute a FIELD FAULT and thus the match ought to have been replayed.
I'm not debating (nor advocating) your stance on the situation. The red alliance's 50+10 in 30 seconds is reasonable; the blue alliance's expectation that the cycle would correctly restart is also reasonable. But recall that field fault doesn't automatically mean the match needs to be replayed. T16 reads:

If, in the judgment of the Head Referee, an “ARENA fault” occurs that affects the outcome of the MATCH, the MATCH will be replayed. (emphasis mine)

If the non-ball times were roughly equal and neither alliance had an advantage, the outcome of the match was unaffected. If the head ref agreed with this stance, a replay should not have occurred.

Thus, I see the core issue here being that the ref crew did not know 3.1.2. Since they faulted Blue for not declaring a dead ball (when it was actually the head ref's responsibility), they saw Red at a disadvantage. Since Red lost, T16 applies and the replay makes sense in context--but it's the context that's wrong.
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Unread 18-03-2014, 21:27
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I'm the alliance captain of #4 (3334-3374-3241), and I can report that we did call a timeout after QF1-2 because our cRIO died and we believed we needed to replace it.
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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:05
RobotKnight2014 RobotKnight2014 is offline
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

As a senior from team 3669 (on the same alliance as 1410 and 1339), I feel it is important to point out that following the debated elimination round, the Regional Director (if I recall correctly) came to our pits and offered an apology for the mistakes that were being made during the course of the weekend (not specifically the elimination round, but the generally overloading of the judges.) If I recall correctly (this was fresh after our loss so I apologize that my memory is a bit blurred), he said that the head ref that was originally lined up for the regional couldn't come and they had to come up with a substitute rather quickly. This was after I had a long discussion with the head ref about the outcome and reasoning of the re-matched game. From the judges running the game, the people in charge of the regional, and the observations of this thread and others that the judges were simply overwhelmed by the end of Saturday. For everyone involved it was a frustrating and draining experience, not just teams (such as myself) who feel that they lost because of poor reffing. We have not heard (or I have not seen) much input from the refs, but they are most likely second guessing hundreds of little choices they made throughout the weekend, just like we are reading these threads and wondering how things might have been done in a perfect world.
My personal motion is for a system where there are a set of refs inputting scores and fouls and another actually making the calls. Obviously this still does not work well if the refs are unaware of the rules, but it would certainly make it easier for them to keep their eyes on the game.
As for my personal thoughts of the outcome of the match, I do not think they would have been able to up enough points to win by the end of the round. I say this because if the ball would have been called dead as per 3.1.2 paragraph 5, our alliance would have been able to score more points and stay in the lead. Obviously this is a personal opinion, but it was frustrating to hear from my teammate and mentor involved with the rematch discussion that our win was void, and eventually wind up being the only original alliance member functional by the end of the last match.
I hope that no other teams have to experience the emotional roller-coaster we experienced, and that FIRST is able to find some way to prevent such frustrating events from occurring in the future. I am also glad that the FIRST community present in these discussions have kept their heads and are actively looking for answers.
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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:38
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

I'm going to type this.....Then walk away for an hour or so, and either post or not post it. (Please do not attack the writing therein...I feel passionate & compassionate in sticking in my 2 cents here today). Call it personal therapy.

This is not a Ref problem IMHO as I see it (though they were certainly thrown head first into the deep depths of the following, and will not be rescued until 2015 Game Release and the beginning of match play then, I fully suspect. Which may just be much too late for many of those wonderful volunteers that are devoted to keeping FIRST games fair to all of the participants).

It is a Game Design Problem. No, that is incorrect. In my personal opinion, it is a whole and very serious host of Game Design Problems. (Sry GDC, usually you are up well above "being up to snuff", and it seems to go years from what I understand, between true poorly designed games, from what I have seen in my short time volunteering with FIRST.

This great game of Aerial Assist, is one of those minor to major failures though. (I personally read the complete rules beginning to end, 3 times myself, and all the updates, and hundreds of discussions here on CD, before we completed the bot build period & since (as what really interests & excites me the most personally as a mentor, beyond mentoring students of course), is the intricate game play and strategy itself. Usually quite AMAZING! This years game, just isn't the best of the best.

It is, what drew me to FRC and FIRST Competition...Formerly an NHRA drag race bracket racing champion, and a Stock Eliminator driver, who is used to rules and rules changes, and a thick rule book...The BOOK IS YOUR FRIEND, and YOU not knowing that rule book is your enemy, so YOU CAN BE YOUR ENEMY, and it can be your downfall before you even begin the playing the game...Or building a robot to compete within this game).

And then, I recently attempted to help teach a few of our own team human players during practice, how to play their very ever changing game positions, that they self admittedly (even after much prodding every day from every mentor, all around for weeks and weeks)....They had never even attempted to even read them for themselves until after they started to practice). That is of course, not a GDC error.

What I see...Too many conflicting rules to begin with, for each High School Student playing the game to begin to attempt to memorize this year (some of the Great Ref's. out there get confused as we see). Penalties that are too high to begin with, for the actual robot designs allowed, and then many too many rules changes after play began (wherein many teams were already eliminated for the season, after playing in their 1 and only Regional or 2). The rest of us are playing under a complete different rules set almost weekly.

Note: I messed this part up below, and had to go actually look at what the actual changes were again, before I could even type this next part correctly.....Sure glad I'm not a student human player. And I have age & experience on my side. (Or is that my enemy?)

From the current rule book Section 2.2.1 The Field
(as reads today 3-18-2014 @ 2:58 PM AZ Time...Will it change again?)

The HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER is a system that consists of horizontal pipes that are 1 ft. 8 in. above the floor and are supported by sheet metal struts that are integrated into the GUARDRAIL. The HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER extends 1 ft. 8 in. wider than the GUARDRAIL and creates a barricade between HUMAN PLAYERS and ROBOTS. The SAFETY ZONE is a 2 in. wide, infinitely tall region located 8 in. from the FIELD-side plane of the GUARDRAILS and is defined by yellow tape on the Human Player Barrier Brackets and the Human Player Barrier End Brackets.

(Emphasis mine above). Then looking at Figure 2-2b. That 12" side is the human player side. That SAFETY ZONE 2 in. wide, infinitely tall region located 8" from the field plane of the guardrail, & is actually taped 8" through 10" from the Field-side plane of the GUARDRAILS.

Note: Guardrail 2" + Human Player Barrier 1'-8" wider than the guardrail=Approx. 22" from Field-side plane of the guardrails. And then later, after Week Zero (not everyone has a Week Zero opportunity)...The SAFETY ZONE WAS MAGICALLY CREATED! (i understand the reasoning, HUMAN STUDENT SAFETY, and I applaud it).

Now, originally as released, the Human Players had from the field side plane/edge of the guardrail outward of the HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER or a full 22" of The HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER to play with inbounding that 24" or 25" Big Ball (Set the ball on the pipes, place a human hand on both sides and you are well within the Human Player Zone).

After week 1, the MAGIC SAFETY ZONE was created. So they were reduced to only 12" Human Player Barrier to play (mind you, the Human Player Zone lines taped to the floor never changed, and we didn't import a ton of very short armed students after Week Zero just to play this game).(Set the ball on the pipes now, place a human hand on both sides, and you well could have your fingertips well within the MAGIC & VERY COSTLY SAFETY Zone).

I personally instructed ours to set it on & roll it off the pipes into our bot, hands behind the ball, flick your wrists and fingertips up, w/ arms locked to your sides as 12"= shorter than most of their hands and wrists and forearms.

And to at all cost, avoid ever trying to fix their mistakes of missing a bot, and reaching to fix it, which comes very natural for teenagers, and that is hugely costly. Those bots were made to P.U. from the floor well I stressed. Do not hold the ball, put it into play on the field quickly. (Of course in reality, many times, they will be feeding a much different bot, and they will have to toss that ball.....I cannot stand the thought, to even look forward to watching it...But, they will all find their own way eventually.

I also agree though, it is much safer for our students. So keep that safety zone, allow for inadvertent crossing when it is NOT dangerous, and lower that penalty due to the much less space allowed to actually inbound that rather large ball. But, test and do it before game release next time please. Week 1 should be the Start of Competition Season...Not testing season for the game.

After Week 2... a slight amount of relief or leeway was evidentally given again w/ another rule change, concerning that SAFETY ZONE (though if you took a poll among students and mentors, and probably even Ref's this week (in Competition Week 4), you would get all kinds of crazy explainations of exactly what those Update Figures published & given actually do fully represent in the updates across the board). Just adds much more for a Ref to be subjective about...Like they need even 1 more thing in this game.

IE: Human players get 20" (or 22" sidelines..depending on what you read in the rulebook), sidelines to begin with on Game Release Day (just do not break the plane of the inside of the guardrail...DO NOT ENTER THE FIELD, Touch a bot, or touch a ball touching a bot, then removing 10" (8" inside from sideline inner rail given to the robots on occasion as long as it isn't intentional and repeated +2" Yellow Tape completes the newly created "2" wide/deep Safety Zone"), reducing them - Human Players, to only the outer 12" they originally had when the game was released, and this done right before actual game play begins between Week Zero and when Week 1 Matches start (I understand...In the name of Safety).

Then Week 1 game play begins and a ton of 50 point penalties are called (and admittedly not called), (some teams are done for the season at this point BTW)....So, begins another rules change order before Week 2 (we are now going to give some leeway, but attempt to figure out these quickly thrown together but decent figures posted in the update)....Now, I ask....How in the World can an average High School Student (yes, most of our students are well above average, but...), be expected to keep up w/ those constant (and very expensive on their behalf if they violate those ever changing rules), changes and not get confused and therefore...PENALIZED BIG? (The unusally high number of replays proves it).

So, what happens? Change the rules again. And, all this while those same rules in effect lay so much subjectiveness in super fast calls, all heaped upon so few refs (as this game would take 10 - and instant replays which are not allowed...we have a match schedule to keep you know,....to catch absolutely everything that happens, and then the use of those Uhm..Wonderful Touchpads that the Ref's have to actually look at to use often in the game, in my foolish opinion, not to mention lag time for the pads, requiring them to physically end a cycle by manual input, etc., etc., etc.).
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And there are just so many this year, some rules conflict (like the dead ball must be called by a drive team w/ provided placard on inside of the clear driver station wall (only 1 per customer / & 1 used per Alliance per match please!)...Where the Ref's are absolutely not looking most of the time BTW in most of the vids I have seen so far that have had many stuck same color balls, (and opposite color balls where that card isn't even necessary, see below)..., If your Alliances ball get's caught up in your color robot). And, if that ball is later freed up (since it isn't declared field debris), you must clear it from the field (or, is it score it, I forget now after some vids I recently watched), before you can accumulate assist points...or any other points.

But, if caught in an opposing Alliances Robot (Blue on Red or Red on Blue), the Ref is supposed to instantly, if not cleared by the robot in question of course that is now posessing an opposing alliance ball, call the ball dead, end the cycle, light the pedestal to begin a new cycle, and declare that ball field debris.....Which is why this thread even exists.

(My personal strategy opinion Students...If any ball is declared field debris...Remove it through a 1 point goal as soon as reasonably possible...Get rid of it, debris or not). Just my opinion. As an extra ball on the field can just confuse all of you and the Ref's. too (I have seen it happen, it creates mass confusion), of either color.

Those 2 rules alone contradict each other BIG, are not complementary to each other, caused even the Head Ref confusion at the Utah Regional (subject of this thread BTW. I watched it live...He did look at the drivers station for a dead ball card...again rules confusion affected the Head Ref...and it isn't his fault in my opinion). Causing him to (not P.U. a book, to make the final call, which should have been A REPLAY Call under T16 "...error(s) by Field Personnel"), but, instead he called HQ, who settled the issue by determining that a replay was in order. The conflicting rules listed above caused that, more than not. Head Ref. IMHO...You are more than OFF THE HOOK, TY for your valuable time. (And I feel for all of you brothers and sisters officiating in 2014 Aerial Assist, even more than in many other years). Again Thank You!

That phone call, coming immediately after rules were violated across the board by allowing MENTORS to argue the calls blown due not IMHO to Ref error, but Game Rules Creation Errors, Field Element Errors, Software bugs & Rule Tinkering to make the squeeky wheels among us, happy after game release (some even in the name of safety), and then we have system bugs not discovered prior to the Game Release, a major thing or few called to the attention of FIRST HQ along the way, and hidden for a short period of time, instead of exposed early & fixed (until called out publicly here), like matches...lots of them at a single Regional w/ timing 20 seconds less than regulation game length, including all the eliminations matches (but not necessarily all of the qualifications matches).....I could go on forever and we are only beginning Week 4. Can't fix it now Sry...We have a a schedule to keep you know. (I need to not go there at all any further). It isn't my horse.

OK, my personal rant is almost over...Sry ALL.

My personal solution (and I DO NOT suggest it for anyone else, it is my personal solution only...and yes, it hurts me really bad, and yes, I will still be watching to the very last second of the Championships. I just will not be participating further this season). I have simply "opted out" of the balance of the 2014 FIRST FRC season. Call it rules heartbreak, and simple personal disgust & disappointment, (disappointments in life happen), but done w/ an air of Gracious Professionalism...I will not cause a scene, and I'm not attempting to here either. Just adding my 2 cents concerning the tread, and the causes in my opinion...Nobody's fault. Period.

My entire team, my Son(s) - 1 a Senior student competitor w/ an amazing brain & 4 year drive team member, programmer and all around leader, robot builder and great kid -1 an FTA in training that has spent a career doing what an FTA does, by helping wire the internet world we actually live in today, and my lovely Education/Mentor Wife (and now you), know I have opted out, and that I will not be joining them tomorrow night as they leave for their 1st competition of 2014- a Week 4 Regional.

They just do not actually truly know why yet. Any confusion as to why, on their part, is ALL MY FAULT (something else teamwise minor happened, but that only helped me w/ my actual decision)....I just have not explained fully yet. (The Aerial assist game excites me, but it also disappoints me highly).

Well, actually, I just did at length above explain it and here & now.

Compassion & Passion for FIRST, for the students, the game, all of the the wonderful, giving of their important time FIRST Employees, Mentors & volunteers, and especially compassion for the VOLUNTEER REF's that are stuck with the nasty volunteer job of officiating this particular game, this particular year, as your job is more than tough, it is IMPOSSIBLE to fully be fair in doing so (and it isn't one bit your fault)....This particular game is exciting to watch!....Also, it is...Too subjective, w/ too much going on, and there will be many continued blown or missed calls, and field problems due to no fault of your own, or anyone elses fault (I will also include here everyone in the GDC, as you tried hard, the game is exciting, and all the FIRST employees and others at HQ). It has to be hard for the GDC to come up w/ a winner game every year nonstop.

Folks...In life, I am no quitter. I troubleshoot computers for a living, and no dumb box has ever beat me, or ever will (even if it takes days and nights of constant sleep deprivation to solve the issues at hand)...My motto: "No Coffee too strong, no night too long, to get to the bottom of exactly what's wrong!" Stepping away is hard, even for a short bit. Buyers remorse? maybe.

In the world of both business and games though....Sometimes a project or product, is just so absolutely bad, that it should be scrapped. Sometimes, we have way too much invested in a project to just give up on it and call it a day or set in a delay. Cancel the project and move on? Shelve it and start another project?....Then, go back to that one when you have solved some of the worst issues, and killed off or fixed some of the minimal bugs that need fixing to be even a minimal of success. Some, you just have to make the best of a bad situation, and move on w/ the schedule and take your lump w/ a .

Businesses are lost everyday due to some people not knowing just when to stop or change course a bit, breathe deep, recover, then move on (because schedules have to just be kept, and a "the show must go on" mentality). In our case the schedule cannot be changed. Venues are reserved, rooms pd. for, school schedules are well, school schedules...The nature of our beast.

But, certain issues must be prioritized and handled first...and others dead last. Fix the field bugs first (but, additions to the field that were not in the designs are not 1 of those IMO, and the default game time should default reset, after every match in my opinion). Change HOW IT IS RUN AND OFFICIATED somehow first please FIRST, then, when it is all fixed on your end...Then and only then, listen to the whiners among us who didn't actually look at ALL the field drawings, and just say NO, SO SRY...those were the rules we released on release day, design to the rules (rule changes for safety reasons we need to understand, but if you reduce player space in one area, expand it on the floor in the same area).

The real reason I'm opting out....I personally do not want to do or say something at an event this year (A very possible G13, that I felt coming on from the soles of my feet welling up like a wave...Due to outright game rules frustration), that would reflect badly on the FIRST Community, my team, myself, or my family....And, you will not be able to hear me scream from my home, as I have screamed often Week 1-Week 3, while watching matches that are, at least to me (and many I see posting on CD), obviously unfair (though through absolutely no fault whatsoever of the officiants or the participants), while I multi-stream every match I can possibly view. I hope things get better as the season progresses though, for all involved.

Good luck to ALL the Teams (and everyone else too)...Go get em'...and don't "let that happen to you." Thanks for letting me rant...I needed that.
______________________________________________
BTW.....IMHO...HQ was correct on the call during the phone call. A replay should have been called; T16.... errors by Field Personnel (sadly to say, but it will continue to be the nature of this game, as that has occurred in many, many of the matches I have seen), and was necessary in this case due both to, the Ref not making a good call on the stuck Blue Ball in a Red Bot (on his own volition immediately, & as per the rule), and also for the Ref not lighting up of the Red pedestal (if it were actually the Ref's fault...very debatable from what I have seen so far and I have seen many, many matches w/ avail. rewind capabilities and use them often), at the conclusion of the completed cycle...And a yellow card violation of T13 (though there is no penalty specifically and actually listed for any violation of T13), or a called G6 Penalty:Robot Disable, for each NON-Pre-College age Student present, for significant delay of match (at the very least), should have been shown to each & every "MENTOR" that showed their face anywhere near that after match question box, without being called over personally by the Head Ref. (Sry MENTORS, or shall I say NON-Pre-College Age Students involved, but Rule T13 is plain & simple.

T13

If a TEAM needs clarification on a ruling or score, one (1) pre-college student from that TEAM should address the Head Referee after the ARENA reset signal (i.e. PLAYER STATION LED strings turn green). A TEAM member signals their desire to speak with the Head Referee by standing in a Red or Blue Question Box, which are located on the floor near each end of the scoring table. Depending on timing, the Head Referee may postpone any requested discussion until the end of the subsequent MATCH.

*Notice no actual penalty for violation there of the T13 questioning process actually exists? It may elsewhere, but, I have not found it.
_______________________________________________
Added later:

Also, I saw while watching the Sacramento Reg. last weekend a G6 D. "Changing Bumpers on the field", leading to an actual G14, for a scheduled qualifying rematch actually "caused by the officials" (and of course it was not called on the Alliance or Team), all due to the "we have to keep our schedule running attitude." Hurry up and fail never works as planned in business or pleasure. Keeping them off the field, and waiting for that bumper change to be completed would have been very proper. Allowing & requiring that change while on the field was absolutely not proper, according to that big blue box under G6. Specifically G6 D.

And, the not calling of a Stuck Red Ball when it was pinned between a Red lower goal and a Blue fallen over robot w/ no space to get to the ball without redbot continually bashing that stricken blue robot repeatedly, risking further damage to a disabled robot on its side, was absolutely criminal IMO at another event (either it was Week 3 Sacramento or Utah). I could go on and on & on.....I'll stop now though finally. Whew.

Just be as consistant in the calls as possible please. There are children watching. I am insenced, and my team has yet to even compete yet. (So this smart man is just staying home this time). But, I will be watching and cheering them all on. If it goes bad...I'll be in the SAFETY ZONE without getting penalized except for my personal decisions.

Go try to have fun kids! It isn't about the robot or the game. It is about learning and having fun right. STEM, and fairness too...But, sometimes life, just isn't fair. And that my friends is the lesson of Aerial Assist 2014.

A Very Valiant effort FIRST, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and sometimes life just kicks you in the teeth for no reason at all, no matter how hard you try....That's why they made Dentists!

OP...Build that frame stronger and go get em' next time.
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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:48
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

For those not willing or wanting to read my idiotic book above...The nuts and bolts as I see it to the actual "replay call" only. Response to the OP.

IMHO...HQ was correct on the call during the phone call.

A replay should have been called; T16 ".... errors by Field Personnel" (sadly to say, but it will continue to be the nature of this game, as that has occurred in many, many of the matches I have seen), and was necessary in this case due both to, the Ref not making a good call on the stuck Blue Ball in a Red Bot (on his own volition immediately, & as per the rule), and also for the Ref not lighting up of the Red pedestal (if it were actually the Ref's fault...very debatable from what I have seen so far and I have seen many, many matches w/ avail. rewind capabilities and use them often), at the conclusion of the completed cycle...And a possible yellow card violation of T13 (though there is no penalty specifically and actually listed for any violation of T13), or a called G6 Penalty:Robot Disable, for each NON-Pre-College age Student present, for significant delay of match (at the very least), should have been shown to each & every "MENTOR" that showed their face anywhere near that after match question box, without being called over personally by the Head Ref. (Sry MENTORS, or shall I say NON-Pre-College Age Students involved, but Rule T13 is plain & simple.

T13

If a TEAM needs clarification on a ruling or score, one (1) pre-college student from that TEAM should address the Head Referee after the ARENA reset signal (i.e. PLAYER STATION LED strings turn green). A TEAM member signals their desire to speak with the Head Referee by standing in a Red or Blue Question Box, which are located on the floor near each end of the scoring table. Depending on timing, the Head Referee may postpone any requested discussion until the end of the subsequent MATCH.

*Notice no actual penalty for violation there of the T13 questioning process actually exists? It may elsewhere, but, I have not found it.

Just glad it was only a replay ordered in this instance.

Gracious Professionalism seems to being showed all around, given the circumstances. Keep that up please.
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