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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:25
TheHolyHades1 TheHolyHades1 is offline
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Basic pneumatics questions

Hello there,

I'm from team 1257. After having played defense (and not much else) in the past district event, we are looking to attempt to implement a solution for launching the ball over the truss for the next competition, in roughly a week and a half. While I fully believe in my team's ability to do so, I do have a couple questions about pneumatics.

1) At competition, I was talking to teams and they said they had both a high pressure and a low pressure circuit going, at 120 and 60 psi respectively. How is this possible, if there is a pressure regulator at 60 psi that's required before all pistons? Furthermore, how can the tanks get up to 120 psi if there is a 60 psi regulator in the circuit? The way it appears in the FIRST setup (http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/upload...Figure4-15.jpg) it doesn't look like there's a break between the tanks and the regulator ...

2) Is there a limit to the number of tanks that we are allowed to have? Also, are we allowed to place tanks after the regulator? I haven't found anything specifically mentioning either in the rules.

3)For a team new to pneumatics, and given the time constraints, I think a latch system to store energy, or any tampering with the pistons (removing fittings to make flow faster, etc), is out of the question. Furthermore, since a 2-3 stage setup would be needed to make a successful ram, would our only option become a trebuchet?

4) I found tanks from our old seasons which are only open on one end (threaded opening). All other tanks (metal or plastic) have threaded/push to connect openings on both sides. Are the one sided containers tanks, and, if they are, would they just be connected to other tanks at the one end, using a t-connector?

We have about 30 pounds free to work with on the robot right now. Would this be enough for a full pneumatic system? If I'm not mistaken, we would be looking at something like 2x 10" stroke 1" bore cylinders (I think that's how one specifies cylinders?), along with the older, more heavy-duty compressor, a few tanks, likely metal (we have new black plastic Clippard tanks but are hesitant to use them due to stories of the white ones fracturing), and a little bit of tubing, brass connectors, and a few electronics. I can't imagine this getting up beyond 30 pounds; that being said, is there anything blatantly obvious I'm forgetting?

That being said, I would appreciate if someone could either answer these questions (and anything else that you think a beginner to pneumatics should know). I would also appreciate any general tips/pointers, or really anything else.

Thank you for your time and for reading,
Hades

Edit: Slightly unrelated. Is there any use for rotational cylinders? I found one sitting in our stock of pneumatic components and I was wondering if it would be remotely useful for FIRST related things. If we're allowed to use it, I see it as possibly being useful for blocking the pistons to build up pressure, among other things. Do teams use them at all?

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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:37
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

1) There is a direction associated with the regulator, If you look closely at one there's a arrow. Everything below that will be the regulated pressure. Everything before the first regulator is referred to as the high side.

2)No Limit except for space and cost considerations. Yes you can put tanks after the regulator but usually not done.

3) You can use a latch system to store the energy. I think what will work for you will depend on more information.

4) you can use various fittings from brass Ts to plastic quick disconnect T's. You may screw in quick disconnect fittings into them.

30 Pounds should be sufficient for a pneumatic system. The old compressor weights in around 10 lbs.

You can use the rotational cylinder.
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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:39
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHolyHades1 View Post
1) At competition, I was talking to teams and they said they had both a high pressure and a low pressure circuit going, at 120 and 60 psi respectively. How is this possible, if there is a pressure regulator at 60 psi that's required before all pistons? Furthermore, how can the tanks get up to 120 psi if there is a 60 psi regulator in the circuit? The way it appears in the FIRST setup (http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/upload...Figure4-15.jpg) it doesn't look like there's a break between the tanks and the regulator ...
The high pressure is storage, regulated down to 60 psi for working pressure. Often it's easier to refer to the two sided separately. Tanks can be on the high-pressure side; cylinders cannot.

Quote:
2) Is there a limit to the number of tanks that we are allowed to have? Also, are we allowed to place tanks after the regulator? I haven't found anything specifically mentioning either in the rules.
No, and yes. I believe both were asked in Q&A. I will comment that the more tanks you have, the more time your one compressor will take to fill them. If you can't refill after a match in 5 minutes or less, you'll be at a disadvantage in eliminations.

Quote:
3)For a team new to pneumatics, and given the time constraints, I think a latch system to store energy, or any tampering with the pistons (removing fittings to make flow faster, etc), is out of the question. Furthermore, since a 2-3 stage setup would be needed to make a successful ram, would our only option become a trebuchet?
I think you may want to consider the application of leverage. If you have the piston fairly low on a linkage, near the pivot, and the piston fires quickly, imagine how fast the OTHER end of that link is going....

Quote:
4) I found tanks from our old seasons which are only open on one end (threaded opening). All other tanks (metal or plastic) have threaded/push to connect openings on both sides. Are the one sided containers tanks, and, if they are, would they just be connected to other tanks at the one end, using a t-connector?
Based on the description, yes (given no moving parts), and yes (though connector is up to you).

Quote:
We have about 30 pounds free to work with on the robot right now. Would this be enough for a full pneumatic system? If I'm not mistaken, we would be looking at something like 2x 10" stroke 1" bore cylinders (I think that's how one specifies cylinders?), along with the older, more heavy-duty compressor, a few tanks, likely metal (we have new black plastic Clippard tanks but are hesitant to use them due to stories of the white ones fracturing), and a little bit of tubing, brass connectors, and a few electronics. I can't imagine this getting up beyond 30 pounds; that being said, is there anything blatantly obvious I'm forgetting?
I don't think you're forgetting much, as long as the "electronics" includes solenoid valves. You'll also want the Solenoid Module for the cRIO, or a Spike per solenoid valve. You've spec'd the cylinders correctly, near as I can tell. But 30 lbs with the older compressor and metal tanks could get a little bit tight, particularly with the material of the launcher itself to factor in. Also verify that you have all the stuff that is required: relief valve for the compressor, manual vent valve, gauges, the regulator, and the pressure sensor.


A couple of other tips: Set up a test system first, to validate that your knowledge of pneumatics works. Leak check with soapy water, sprayed onto the tubing near the valves at the suspected leak point. Go with an onboard compressor--I suspect you'll have lots of leaks; you want to be able to counter them. Cut your tubing at 90 degree angles; that'll help with reducing leaks at fittings.
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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:45
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
You'll also want the Solenoid Module for the cRIO, or a Spike per solenoid valve.
But you may hook up multiple solenoids to 1 spike relay. You can also hook up 2 individual single action solenoids to 1 relay and still maintain control over both individually.
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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:45
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

You should be able to fit a pneumatic system in 30lbs withholding allowance fairly easily, especially considering almost all of it will be COTS parts. You'll have to do a of plumbing and testing the system on Thursday (especially considering it doesn't sound like you've done one before), but this is a time issue instead of weight. Read through all the official materials on pneumatics from FIRST so you can make sure to build a legal system, make a solid plan (if you can, CAD out the location of tanks/solenoids/compressor), and then ask around for someone really experienced with pneumatics as soon as you get to competition. You'll need their help putting things together the first time around, especially finding and fixing leaks.

I would use the black Clippard tanks any day over the metal ones, especially considering weight is a concern. The problems (which frankly, in my opinion have been dwelt on a bit too long) were with the white tanks, and unless you physically damage the black tanks, you won't have them explode on you. The metal tanks weigh a ton, and only store a tiny bit of air compared to the plastic ones.

The teams talking about two pressure levels were likely only referring to the stored (in the tanks/off the compressor) pressure and working pressure (in the cylenders/solenoids/off the regulator). If they weren't, they had an illegal system. There's no restriction on whether you have tanks above or bellow the 120 psi level. You can keep them on the 60 psi side if you want.

There's no limit on number of tanks, except the rules for the robot size and weight (you can't have an infinite number of tanks, as they will be too big/heavy).

Figuring out how to build a pneumatic catapult (which sounds like the way to go, from what I've heard on CD) is something that needs either prototyping or for you to copy someone else's design. It takes a fair amount of iteration to get a system that will throw the ball exactly how you want it, and I certainly wouldn't build your final mechanism without doing a bit of prototyping and research first. I hope someone who actually built a pneumatic catapult will chime in on this thread.
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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:47
TheHolyHades1 TheHolyHades1 is offline
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

Thank you both. How would you recommend that we cut the tubing? I've tried to use scissors and xacto knives/box cutters but none of them seem to be doing the job well, or at all in some cases. Should I be using something like wire cutters?

I should mention that there is already a hinged ramp on our robot which we are simply planning on actuating with 2 cylinders at this point. As was mentioned, we should hopefully be able to attach near the bottom of the ramp (close to the hinge) to help it swing forward rapidly.
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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:50
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

A Pneumatic Tubing Cutter like this.

Edit: McmasterCarr Carries them too
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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:50
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

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Originally Posted by TheHolyHades1 View Post
Thank you both. How would you recommend that we cut the tubing? I've tried to use scissors and xacto knives/box cutters but none of them seem to be doing the job well, or at all in some cases. Should I be using something like wire cutters?
Diagonal cutters should work--but as I noted earlier, you want that tubing cut as close to straight across as you can get. I've seen special cutters for the stuff that help with that, but I'm not sure where to get 'em, especially on short notice.
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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:50
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHolyHades1 View Post
Thank you both. How would you recommend that we cut the tubing? I've tried to use scissors and xacto knives/box cutters but none of them seem to be doing the job well, or at all in some cases. Should I be using something like wire cutters?
I like to use wire cutters. Just make sure to squeeze hard, so the tubing it cut nice and clean. If the cuts aren't perfectly straight, your system will leak.
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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:57
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by DampRobot View Post
You should be able to fit a pneumatic system in 30lbs withholding allowance fairly easily, especially considering almost all of it will be COTS parts. You'll have to do a of plumbing and testing the system on Thursday (especially considering it doesn't sound like you've done one before), but this is a time issue instead of weight. Read through all the official materials on pneumatics from FIRST so you can make sure to build a legal system, make a solid plan (if you can, CAD out the location of tanks/solenoids/compressor), and then ask around for someone really experienced with pneumatics as soon as you get to competition. You'll need their help putting things together the first time around, especially finding and fixing leaks.
Incidentally, the withholding limit is just under how much weight we can add onto the currently functional robot and still be under the magical 120 lbs. It wasn't the 30 lbs (is it still 45 now, for MAR?) withholding limit I was talking about, but the weight we could add on the robot. Truth be told, I forgot there was a withholding limit .

Quote:
Originally Posted by DampRobot View Post
I would use the black Clippard tanks any day over the metal ones, especially considering weight is a concern. The problems (which frankly, in my opinion have been dwelt on a bit too long) were with the white tanks, and unless you physically damage the black tanks, you won't have them explode on you. The metal tanks weigh a ton, and only store a tiny bit of air compared to the plastic ones.
Well, the only concern that I have with the black plastic tanks is that they're rated for about 35 to 100 degrees F, same as the white ones I believe. In New Jersey at this time of the year there is still a risk of the temperatures dropping that low (though it's getting to the point where that isn't *nearly* that much of a concern). My point is that if the robot is stored outside overnight (ie. unheated garage, which has happened on the weekends), then we might induce thermal fracture on the tanks. I've heard fabric around the tanks will help mitigate some of the damage from explision, but safety is still a concern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DampRobot View Post
The teams talking about two pressure levels were likely only referring to the stored (in the tanks/off the compressor) pressure and working pressure (in the cylenders/solenoids/off the regulator). If they weren't, they had an illegal system. There's no restriction on whether you have tanks above or bellow the 120 psi level. You can keep them on the 60 psi side if you want.

There's no limit on number of tanks, except the rules for the robot size and weight (you can't have an infinite number of tanks, as they will be too big/heavy).
Gotcha, thanks. That makes sense.

There was also talk of using some interesting pneumatics physics where, between 3 pistons, they were able to achieve (if I remember correctly) 250% of the normal psi? Is this even possible, or am I simply remembering wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DampRobot View Post
Figuring out how to build a pneumatic catapult (which sounds like the way to go, from what I've heard on CD) is something that needs either prototyping or for you to copy someone else's design. It takes a fair amount of iteration to get a system that will throw the ball exactly how you want it, and I certainly wouldn't build your final mechanism without doing a bit of prototyping and research first. I hope someone who actually built a pneumatic catapult will chime in on this thread.
We will certainly be doing some prototyping before adding onto the robot. The plan is to get prototypes and basic testing done before the weekend, then spend the weekend constructing a system to actually put onto the robot.
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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:59
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Diagonal cutters should work--but as I noted earlier, you want that tubing cut as close to straight across as you can get. I've seen special cutters for the stuff that help with that, but I'm not sure where to get 'em, especially on short notice.
Gotcha, thanks. As the poster above pointed out, apparently McMaster carries a tool for this. They have a warehouse near us, perhaps we can go tomorrow and pick one up directly. Thanks again.
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

I've also heard that L-connectors should be avoided whenever possible; is this true, and are there any other connectors that I should be avoiding?
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Unread 19-03-2014, 02:03
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

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Originally Posted by DampRobot View Post
I like to use wire cutters. Just make sure to squeeze hard, so the tubing it cut nice and clean. If the cuts aren't perfectly straight, your system will leak.
I wonder if the cutters at the center of most needlenose pliers will work?
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Unread 19-03-2014, 02:08
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

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There was also talk of using some interesting pneumatics physics where, between 3 pistons, they were able to achieve (if I remember correctly) 250% of the normal psi? Is this even possible, or am I simply remembering wrong?
Could be.

It's illegal (and unwise) to configure pistons such that they will boost the PSI in another one (although it's possible). If they were doing it like this, they weren't following the rules, and have a potentially pretty unsafe situation on their hands.

What they were probably talking about is configuring the pistons such that they generate three times the force, maybe just by moving where they attach to the catapult, or by just using three side by side instead of one. It's just basic physics/mechanical advantage stuff.

They also could be talking about getting a 250% faster flow rate by doing a pneumatic tank on the vent, using special solenoids, or some other tricky pneumatics stuff.
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Unread 19-03-2014, 02:14
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Re: Basic pneumatics questions

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Originally Posted by DampRobot View Post
Could be.

It's illegal (and unwise) to configure pistons such that they will boost the PSI in another one (although it's possible). If they were doing it like this, they weren't following the rules, and have a potentially pretty unsafe situation on their hands.

What they were probably talking about is configuring the pistons such that they generate three times the force, maybe just by moving where they attach to the catapult, or by just using three side by side instead of one. It's just basic physics/mechanical advantage stuff.

They also could be talking about getting a 250% faster flow rate by doing a pneumatic tank on the vent, using special solenoids, or some other tricky pneumatics stuff.
That "tricky pneumatics stuff" sounds rather interesting, actually, but we should probably stay away from it for the time being. By special solenoids, do you mean ones with a higher flow rate? I was reading here that there's either less regulation or none at all on the solenoids used this year; could someone confirm/deny this, and then possibly suggest the solenoids their team uses (if they're not the standard ones)?
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