Go to Post Because nothing says safety like carrying a 150lb robot across a field covered in golf balls. - Kevin Sevcik [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 16:38
Michael Hill's Avatar
Michael Hill Michael Hill is offline
Registered User
FRC #3138 (Innovators Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 1,580
Michael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MooreteP View Post
If you want an effective defense, build a goalie bot, or modify your Robot to be one.
Worth more than all the rammings and deflections combined.
Blocking a 10 point shot with its attendant time penalty is a game changer.
But build your blocker really weak-like and when an offensive robot tries to push you out of the way, let it break! Draw a foul just like in basketball!
Reply With Quote
  #32   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 16:38
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Joining the 900 Meme Team
FRC #0079
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Misplaced Michigander
Posts: 4,082
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MooreteP View Post
If you want an effective defense, build a goalie bot, or modify your Robot to be one.
Worth more than all the rammings and deflections combined.
Blocking a 10 point shot with its attendant time penalty is a game changer.
Yeah, except that the ramming seems to be pretty effective when most teams can barely play the game due to having two "defenders"* on them.



*Defenders in this case can read as "People beating them mercilessly"
__________________




.
Reply With Quote
  #33   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 16:45
BBray_T1296's Avatar
BBray_T1296 BBray_T1296 is offline
I am Dave! Yognaut
AKA: Brian Bray
FRC #1296 (Full Metal Jackets)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 947
BBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnets View Post
Only if it was caused by "high-speed or repeated, aggressive ramming"
If somebody comes flying down the field and hits my (theoretically [but legal!]) entirely Styrofoam robot, it is their fault when my poor design decisions causes my robot to disintegrate?

How about last year, when running cycles we hit a robot playing defense on us, and knocked all 4 of their bumpers off (breaking off the bumper mounts, what little they were). That is my fault also?
__________________
If molecular reactions are deterministic, are all universes identical?

RIP David Shafer: you will be missed


Reply With Quote
  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 16:48
JohnFogarty's Avatar
JohnFogarty JohnFogarty is offline
Trapped under a pile of MECANUMS :P
AKA: @doctorfogarty
FTC #11444 (Garnet Squadron) & FRC#1102 (M'Aiken Magic)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Aiken, SC
Posts: 1,584
JohnFogarty has a reputation beyond reputeJohnFogarty has a reputation beyond reputeJohnFogarty has a reputation beyond reputeJohnFogarty has a reputation beyond reputeJohnFogarty has a reputation beyond reputeJohnFogarty has a reputation beyond reputeJohnFogarty has a reputation beyond reputeJohnFogarty has a reputation beyond reputeJohnFogarty has a reputation beyond reputeJohnFogarty has a reputation beyond reputeJohnFogarty has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
Yeah, except that the ramming seems to be pretty effective when most teams can barely play the game due to having two "defenders"* on them.



*Defenders in this case can read as "People beating them mercilessly"
The GDC developed a game with a slightly similar flow to soccer, hockey, and basketball. Defense is extremely important in all of these sports.

However, one on one robot ramming is something that a team should be prepared for in a game like this, and if the team didn't build a robust enough robot for it. They did a "bad" job.

If you really wanted to give scoring teams a break then I would propose the fouling of double teaming - or double ramming. Not fouling all ramming completely. I'm glad I don't have to have my team play again till champs. By then this whole thing better be sorted.
__________________
John Fogarty
2010 FTC World Championship Winner & 2013-2014 FRC Orlando Regional Winner
Mentor FRC Team 1102 M'Aiken Magic
"Head Bot Coach" FTC Team 11444 Garnet Squadron
Former Student & Mentor FLL 1102, FTC 1102 & FTC 3864, FRC 1772, FRC 5632, FRC 4901
2013 FTC World Championship Guest Speaker
Reply With Quote
  #35   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 16:48
bduddy bduddy is offline
Registered User
FRC #0840 (ART)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: San Bruno, CA
Posts: 869
bduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
Yeah, except that the ramming seems to be pretty effective when most teams can barely play the game due to having two "defenders"* on them.



*Defenders in this case can read as "People beating them mercilessly"
There are two more robots on your alliance, too. What are they doing?
__________________

Does anyone else remember when TBA signatures actually worked?
Reply With Quote
  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 16:52
Jay O'Donnell's Avatar
Jay O'Donnell Jay O'Donnell is online now
Division by Pirates
FRC #0229 (Division by Zero)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Potsdam, NY/Londonderry, NH
Posts: 1,358
Jay O'Donnell has a reputation beyond reputeJay O'Donnell has a reputation beyond reputeJay O'Donnell has a reputation beyond reputeJay O'Donnell has a reputation beyond reputeJay O'Donnell has a reputation beyond reputeJay O'Donnell has a reputation beyond reputeJay O'Donnell has a reputation beyond reputeJay O'Donnell has a reputation beyond reputeJay O'Donnell has a reputation beyond reputeJay O'Donnell has a reputation beyond reputeJay O'Donnell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by bduddy View Post
There are two more robots on your alliance, too. What are they doing?
They should be playing defense. If you have your two alliance partners come down to set picks for you on both defenders, it's just going to be a massive cluster of robots that's impossible to move in.
__________________
Student on Team 1058 (2012-2015)
Mentor on Team 229 (2016-Present)
Writer for Blue Alliance Blog
Reply With Quote
  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 16:54
Danny Diaz's Avatar
Danny Diaz Danny Diaz is offline
Smooth Operator
AKA: FrankenMentor
None #0418
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 545
Danny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Danny Diaz
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Reminds me of Rack 'n Roll. Semifinal matches, Lone Star Regional. Immediately out of autonomous, the robot driver commands the robot to traverse the length of the field faster than the opposing alliance can grab their sticks, and smashes into an opposing robot so hard 418's battery comes flying out of it, and the opposing robot just dies on the field right there. We drew a yellow card that match, but no other penalty.

And Aim High, Finals 1-2 at Lone Star Regional. 118 in autonomous moves to a repeated spot on the field, a spot that 418 was specifically aimed for. As soon as 118 is in position and begins calibrating its shooter, 418 traverses the field (still in auto) and hits 118 so hard that 118 spins almost 118 degrees on the field and the entire auditorium screams, "OUCH!". No penalty, no card.

Today we'd probably lose those matches due to penalties.

-Danny
__________________
Danny Diaz
Former Lead Technical Mentor, FRC 418
Reply With Quote
  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 16:57
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Joining the 900 Meme Team
FRC #0079
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Misplaced Michigander
Posts: 4,082
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

John, we did build for robot on robot ramming. Or multiple robot on us ramming. The frame can take it no problem. It just makes for a really boring game due to the lack of other activities for teams to do if they aren't the most capable bot on the alliance. Ramming defense is easy whereas running an effective pick is dang near impossible. Coupled with the fact that very few teams during quals are willing to be relegated to that as they all want to show their stuff for picking but it's not practical to let a team that is 0 for 8 from the floor try to shoot. But then you have to deal with them telling you that you're "Not GP"

Scuse me, I'll go off and be a grumpy old man in the corner.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bduddy View Post
There are two more robots on your alliance, too. What are they doing?
Off hand, the same thing to my opponent because if I have to deal with it so do they. Course, this makes for a boring game from an audience perspective. But that's not important... Oh wait, culture change is the entire point of FIRST. (In before I'm told to see the bigger picture)
__________________




.
Reply With Quote
  #39   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 17:06
Oblarg Oblarg is online now
Registered User
AKA: Eli Barnett
FRC #0449 (The Blair Robot Project)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 1,116
Oblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

What does this even mean?

Is there a defensive strategy for dealing with scoring robots that doesn't involve "repeated, aggressive ramming" with the intent to "inhibit" the other robot? What does "aggressive" mean in this context? Re: "high-speed," does this mean if we geared our robot to move quickly we have to be extra-careful about playing defense? What would constitute a legal defensive strategy, and what would be illegal?

If this rule makes bumper-to-bumper contact under normal conditions illegal if one robot happens to break, then it is a stupid rule. There are already rules against intentional tipping, grappling, and damage outside of the bumper zone; these account for ~90% of the damage I saw at the NC regional. If a team's robot can't withstand a hard hit on their bumpers, then they did not design their robot properly.
__________________
"Mmmmm, chain grease and aluminum shavings..."
"The breakfast of champions!"

Member, FRC Team 449: 2007-2010
Drive Mechanics Lead, FRC Team 449: 2009-2010
Alumnus/Technical Mentor, FRC Team 449: 2010-Present
Lead Technical Mentor, FRC Team 4464: 2012-2015
Technical Mentor, FRC Team 5830: 2015-2016

Last edited by Oblarg : 20-03-2014 at 17:11.
Reply With Quote
  #40   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 17:17
wireties's Avatar
wireties wireties is offline
Principal Engineer
AKA: Keith Buchanan
FRC #1296 (Full Metal Jackets)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 1,173
wireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to wireties
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

The big problem I see is the definition of "high speed", "repetitive" and "aggressive" in real-time. I would hate to be a referee. Or a victim.
__________________
Fast, cheap or working - pick any two!
Reply With Quote
  #41   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 17:19
mwtidd's Avatar
mwtidd mwtidd is offline
Registered User
AKA: mike
FRC #0319 (Big Bad Bob)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 714
mwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

I'm interested in seeing how refs call this one. Sorry week 4 teams, you're my guinea pigs.
__________________
"Never let your schooling interfere with your education" -Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #42   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 17:24
Unsung FIRST Hero
JVN JVN is offline
@JohnVNeun
AKA: John Vielkind-Neun
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Greenville, Tx
Posts: 3,159
JVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

There are two questions to ask:
1. What is the GDC's intent?
2. Did they succeed at accomplishing that intent?

I'm surprised how many people in this thread seem to have drastically different assumptions about #1 than me. Maybe I'm misreading the GDC.
__________________
In the interest of full disclosure: I work for VEX Robotics a subsidiary of Innovation First International (IFI) Crown Supplier & Proud Supporter of FIRST
Reply With Quote
  #43   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 17:24
Swan217's Avatar
Swan217 Swan217 is offline
RoboShow Producer
AKA: DJ Royal Fusion
no team (RoboShow)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Detroit Raised, Orlando Adopted
Posts: 568
Swan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Swan217
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblarg View Post
If a team's robot can't withstand a hard hit on their bumpers, then they did not design their robot properly.
This is not Battlebots - I shouldn't have to design a robot for 6G of impact. Try playing defense that doesn't rely on bodychecking your opponents.
__________________
Orlando Regional Planning Committee & Cohost of The RoboShow & RoboVision

Follow The RoboShow on Twitter @RoboShowLive & check out our website, www.theroboshow.net

Follow RoboVision on Twitter @RoboVisionOD & check out our website, www.robovisionod.com





"As president, I believe that robotics can inspire young people to pursue science and engineering. And I also want to keep an eye on those robots in case they try anything."
— President Barack Obama
Reply With Quote
  #44   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 17:25
cadandcookies's Avatar
cadandcookies cadandcookies is online now
Director of Programs, GOFIRST
AKA: Nick Aarestad
FTC #9205 (The Iron Maidens)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Minnesnowta
Posts: 1,565
cadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

I'll chime in after I've actually seen a weekend of matches played under these rules. I'm hoping for the best.
__________________

Never assume the motives of others are, to them, less noble than yours are to you. - John Perry Barlow
tumblr | twitter
'Snow Problem CAD Files: 2015 2016
MN FTC Field Manager, FTA, CSA, Emcee
FLL Maybe NXT Year (09-10) -> FRC 2220 (11-14) -> FTC 9205(14-?)/FRC 2667 (15-16)
VEXU UMN (2015-??)
Volunteer since 2011
2013 RCA Winner (North Star Regional) (2220)
2016 Connect Award Winner (North Super Regional and World Championship) (9205)
Reply With Quote
  #45   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 17:28
Andy A. Andy A. is offline
Getting old
FRC #0095
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,018
Andy A. has a reputation beyond reputeAndy A. has a reputation beyond reputeAndy A. has a reputation beyond reputeAndy A. has a reputation beyond reputeAndy A. has a reputation beyond reputeAndy A. has a reputation beyond reputeAndy A. has a reputation beyond reputeAndy A. has a reputation beyond reputeAndy A. has a reputation beyond reputeAndy A. has a reputation beyond reputeAndy A. has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

I wonder what the definition of 'High Speed' is, in this context.

I would encourage the GDC to establish an actual speed limit. Make it a inspection item or just honor system. As is I have no idea how a team of refs is going to fairly enforce the 'high speed ramming' aspect of this, never mind the rest of the update.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:24.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi