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  #61   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2014, 20:19
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Could this unscheduled rule update come as a result of a Head Referee conference call? I don't know when those take place but something must have triggered the late release of this update.

Unless they just couldn't decide what to do by Tuesday...

Good luck to all the guinea pigs competing this weekend. I hope that the update positively impacts the game and doesn't cause more harm than good.
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Unread 20-03-2014, 20:29
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnishi2011 View Post
Preface: My team haven't competed yet and I have never been a referee.

I think this rule update makes sense.

The update, from my perspective, says this:

High speed collisions, if accidental and damaging/inhibitive, foul.
Repeated, aggressive ramming, or purposeful high speed collisions, technical foul.

I fail to see how this 'kills defense'. Every sport, from hockey to football, draws the line somewhere for how much 'roughness' is allowed. The intent (to address JVN's point) is to reduce the amount of damage on robots. I think we can all get behind that intent.

High speed collisions and repeated, aggressive ramming are not the cornerstones of good defence. Pushing, blocking and pinning are all still legal under this update. Every sport relies on the subjectivity of the referees to decide what constitutes dangerous play or unnecessary roughness and precedents will eventually be set.

I actually think this ruling empowers referees, more than burdens them. As far as I'm aware they already watch out for dangerous robot-robot interactions. This gives them the chance to penalize clumsy/overzealous yet good-intending teams without the huge 50pt swing.
I agree on most of your points except the ramming. Ramming your opponent as they are about to shoot is already proven in previous weeks to be very effective at stopping shots. It will be significantly less effective if you can't ram your opponent as hard anymore.
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Unread 20-03-2014, 20:41
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

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Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb) View Post
I agree on most of your points except the ramming. Ramming your opponent as they are about to shoot is already proven in previous weeks to be very effective at stopping shots. It will be significantly less effective if you can't ram your opponent as hard anymore.
I understand that this years game is much more physical than in years past, but why are they going to penalize ramming now. Ramming has been a way to create some effective defense in every scoring game. If they were very concerned about shooting bots getting rammed, I don't understand why they just didn't create a safety zone.
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Unread 20-03-2014, 20:44
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

My biggest concern with this new rule (it was an issue with the old rule too, really) is that "inhibition" needs to be much better defined. It's almost meaningless right now - almost anything could be considered "inhibition" by some, while others may have a much narrower definition.
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Unread 20-03-2014, 20:56
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb) View Post
I agree on most of your points except the ramming. Ramming your opponent as they are about to shoot is already proven in previous weeks to be very effective at stopping shots. It will be significantly less effective if you can't ram your opponent as hard anymore.
While ramming is not directly outlawed (it has to be both aggressive and repeated), I'll concede that it will probably be penalized inconsistently, and it might be worth not risking the penalty at all and avoid ramming (although you can still ram them once, right when they are about to shoot).

Defensive strategies may have to evolve. I'm sure the GDC don't enjoy adding more penalties/fouls to the game, but if teams are going to employ strategies that risk the integrity of another team's robot, it's their duty to protect against it.

Ultimately, losing the ability to ram (which again, strictly speaking is not what has happened) is a small price to pay. I'd rather watch and play a game where every robot leaves the field in one piece.
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Unread 20-03-2014, 21:15
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

A GDC update that quickly garners 64 comments, all debating what the update means, does nothing but muddy the already virtually black waters. This game needs simple, clear, uncomplicated, unambiguous rules in order to save it. Alas, I believe we are too far gone for rescue.

Overtaxed refs are now further burdened. The gray area of rule interpretation has now vastly expanded. We will continue with yet another week of competition scored by different rules.

It is time to officially declare this game worse than Lunacy.

My hope is for lessons learned........
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Unread 20-03-2014, 21:39
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

I suggest your drivers & drive coach go to the drivers meeting. Pay attention. Ask questions. The people that are going to be refereeing your game are to be there. They will tell you how they are going to call your game.

I expect heavy bumping pushing that serves a purpose will be allowed. Full speed hits are going to be frowned upon.
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Unread 20-03-2014, 22:06
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Just posting in this thread now to remind Friday/Saturday me that Thursday me is already preparing for my inevitable meltdown over this rule change being applied in the Virginia Regional.

Last edited by PayneTrain : 20-03-2014 at 22:14.
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Unread 20-03-2014, 22:20
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

My opinion is that this is simply an attempt to move this game away from being Battle bots Plain and simple.

Because the game is a single ball game, 2 robots are not doing anything and they are beating the living daylights out of the other teams offensive robots.

At one time I coached high school lacrosse. At the high school level, in many places you have a large percentage of less experienced players that simply cannot throw and catch the ball effectively. The game, when played on a higher level, has little contact because good players get rid of the ball quickly enough and make quick passes so that physical play does not net you an advantage. In a lower level game, because the players do not have these skills, physical play nets results and the game becomes quite physical and violent at times.

This game is not unlike this situation... teams have a tough time holding on to the ball or acquiring it... this makes close defense a real option.
The way you beat a double team on your robot is to pass to another player that is not being defended... unfortunately, this is VERY difficult in this game... most robots have a very difficult time passing to each other effectively and the ball gets "kissed" to the other robot... this leads to lots of contact.

As game play gets better, defense will be harder to play... with better robots that have strategies that include moving the ball towards the goal by passing rather than driving with the ball, defense will have to change.

Right now its really easy to defend.

What is happening is that this kind of defense is leading to robot failures from the contact. Too many robots are being damaged. Some permanently.
Robustness is difficult to design .. acquiring the ball, carrying it and launching it are very difficult tasks for many teams....

I think the GDC is simply telling us that they want us to not cause damage. To back off a little and let robots do what they were designed to do a little bit.

It has gotten too rough... we should not be damaging each other.

Now, referees are tasked with doing this by calling fouls. Like any sport, we will have to see what they are going to allow. This happens even in well established sports and in individual contests from weekend to weekend.

The GDC is just saying stop the violence and the damage. In operation of your robot, think about what you are doing... the protection of bumpers is not sufficient this year. Think before you play defense by brute force. Use position and scouting to do it.

We will see what this means but if we all just take a step back and try and play defense with finesse rather than brute crushing power I think we will be fine.

I really don't think the referees are looking to call penalties... they are simply trying to make the game safe for the robots.
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Unread 20-03-2014, 22:52
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

I'd like to praise the GDC for listening to feedback on CD and elsewhere, and for demonstrating continuous improvement by modifying the game rules to discourage brutal game-play.

While some might get tripped up in the language, I think the intent of the update is loud and clear: the FRC is not and has never meant to be battle bots. Driving recklessly and with disregard to other robots isn't within the spirit of the FRC, and should be penalized.

I think we'll see in referee interpretations and future refinements to this rule that defense still is a viable (and encouraged) strategy, while recklessly smashing into opponents is not (and there is a huge difference).
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Unread 20-03-2014, 23:10
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

I'm cool with these changes, for reasons expressed by others who've come out in favor of them.

FRC robots need to be robust, but the battle of attrition I've been watching isn't what I generally sign up for.
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Unread 20-03-2014, 23:12
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

I would think that any bumper to bumper contact is legal. I mean if bumpers are built correctly that is 4 POOL NOODLES colliding......

With that being said clearly something had to be done and maybe this is the change we needed!
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Unread 20-03-2014, 23:29
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Steele View Post
My opinion is that this is simply an attempt to move this game away from being Battle bots Plain and simple.

Because the game is a single ball game, 2 robots are not doing anything and they are beating the living daylights out of the other teams offensive robots.

At one time I coached high school lacrosse. At the high school level, in many places you have a large percentage of less experienced players that simply cannot throw and catch the ball effectively. The game, when played on a higher level, has little contact because good players get rid of the ball quickly enough and make quick passes so that physical play does not net you an advantage. In a lower level game, because the players do not have these skills, physical play nets results and the game becomes quite physical and violent at times.

This game is not unlike this situation... teams have a tough time holding on to the ball or acquiring it... this makes close defense a real option.
The way you beat a double team on your robot is to pass to another player that is not being defended... unfortunately, this is VERY difficult in this game... most robots have a very difficult time passing to each other effectively and the ball gets "kissed" to the other robot... this leads to lots of contact.

As game play gets better, defense will be harder to play... with better robots that have strategies that include moving the ball towards the goal by passing rather than driving with the ball, defense will have to change.

Right now its really easy to defend.

What is happening is that this kind of defense is leading to robot failures from the contact. Too many robots are being damaged. Some permanently.
Robustness is difficult to design .. acquiring the ball, carrying it and launching it are very difficult tasks for many teams....

I think the GDC is simply telling us that they want us to not cause damage. To back off a little and let robots do what they were designed to do a little bit.

It has gotten too rough... we should not be damaging each other.

Now, referees are tasked with doing this by calling fouls. Like any sport, we will have to see what they are going to allow. This happens even in well established sports and in individual contests from weekend to weekend.

The GDC is just saying stop the violence and the damage. In operation of your robot, think about what you are doing... the protection of bumpers is not sufficient this year. Think before you play defense by brute force. Use position and scouting to do it.

We will see what this means but if we all just take a step back and try and play defense with finesse rather than brute crushing power I think we will be fine.

I really don't think the referees are looking to call penalties... they are simply trying to make the game safe for the robots.
Best post in the thread so far. Teams should be focusing on playing the game, and I'm not saying that defense is not a legitimate strategy. Yes defense is an important part of the game; however it should not besuch as large that it is costing teams that have built solid and robust robust to eventually break because of ridiculous means of defense. Seriously would you really want any other robot come flying full tilt across the field just to hit you? That really does have potential to damage any robot.

The rule isn't limiting defense as much as you would think. It is more so aimed at preventing damage through high speed contact. You can still play good defense by ramming, just not as intense and as often. If you think about it when do you really need to repeatedly ram into someone? You can still push and what not as well as ram into a robot while it is taking a shot.

Then again what do I know, no one has seen a match with the update to the rules.
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Unread 20-03-2014, 23:54
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

I know that no one team causes any updates, but feel like we might have had a role in bringing this update into existence.

At SAC this year, a variety of electronics and mechanical issues prevented us from getting our shooter working until late on Friday, by which time we had discovered we could play really good D. We had a fast, powerful WCD, and a strong frame and bumpers. Our driver had never really practiced D, but could be coached pretty easily, and ended up being able to shut quite a few teams down. Teams at the competition and alums watching videos noticed that we were playing really hard defense, and even the announcer was commenting on it. We always play to win, and those matches where we were playing defense were no exception.

When we play D, we don't play with the intention of ramming other teams into oblivion. Not only is that a really mean way to play the game, but it's the wrong way strategically too. Playing positional defense (being between them and the ball, between them and their shooting spot, them and the 1 pt goal, them and the teams they're receiving from, them and the human player, etc) is a far better way to prevent teams from scoring then by trying to ram them into the stone age. But defense is a contact strategy, and when there is contact, there's usually some rapid changes of speed and direction. Sometimes you have to hit the corner of an opposing robot to turn them, and sometimes you have to get your robot between the opposing bot and where they want to go. Ramming isn't the goal, but when you play defense, high speed collisions are going to happen some of the time.

This team update essentially makes any team that is able to execute a defensive strategy the target of massive penalties. If you are playing defense effectively, you're going to have some high speed collisions. And I highly suspect that this is only going to be called against teams playing effective defense, whether or not there are other teams hitting harder.

We're revamping our robot for SVR, and plan to put up points in teleop instead of being stuck preventing other people from getting them. Perhaps my opinion will change then. But I feel like this update too broadly penalizes teams for playing defense.
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Unread 21-03-2014, 00:15
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014

Oh man, and right before Waterloo too!
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