Why does everyone hate this game so much?

[joemost]

Honestly, I am a junior this year, and this is my favorite game, with rebound rumble following in second behind ultimate asscent.

I think what is nice about this game is it is less about shooting, and more about ball movement, strategy. I mean there is still a fair amount of shooting but I think teams are finding its pretty easy to score undefended.

I felt like an ultime asscent most games would just be a shootout instead of an actual game. There wasnt a lot of room for defense.

With regards to bad alliance partners losing the game, I mean isn't that kinda like everygame? If there is only one robot scoring on the team then its pretty $@#$@#$@#$@# easy to know what robot needs to be shutdown. On the Lacrosse field, if one kid is scoring all the goals, who do you put your best defender on? It shouldn't be anyother way.

We have also found that with a skilled robot, you can carry a game on your own if necessary, not ideal but against some matchups you have to.

Disregard any spelling mistakes I am typing on my phone

[billylo]

Just returned from Waterloo. I have been reflecting on what the most important thing, the one thing I would put on the feedback form.

Here it is:

It's practically impossible to predict how a game will be played by 50000 smart people, young and the-young at heart. Even if you recruit Neil deGrasse Tyson (as an example) and put him onto the GDC.

So, what can be done to continue growing STEM better through FIRST?

Engage the 50,000 smart people in participating the evolution of a game in structured way. Leverage the competition experience of teams like 254, 469, 33, etc; the less experienced teams; and the rookies and pre-rookies too.

Turn the problem on its head.

Don't fix this game (yes, you heard that from me here... :-) )

Invest our time in enhancing the process of conceiving, designing, testing and deploying the game. Transparency will lead to understanding, engagement will lead to acceptance; and openness will lead to willingness to forget about the imperfect aspects of the system.

[pyroslev]

I don't love this game. I don't hate it either.

2004 and 2013 for me are the reigning great games for me. 2004 for was a culmination game of previous years. 2013 was a reinvention year for games.

Here were are in 2014. They chose to emphasize assisting other teams in the spirit of GP. I saw a lot of defense but I'll call it cycle defense. Two robots work to assist. As soon as the first robot has handed off, they went on the offense to block either the other alliance from scoring or to protect their alliance. That can be rough overall. At Virginia which many claim is the Defense capital we The only massive damages I saw were arms pop rivets snapped and one set of swerve drive wheel brackets snap.

Not the best game they've made but there are elements that will work it's way into the next culmination game.

[efoote868]

I wouldn't say that I "hate" this game, but there are two things in my mind that are go against it and make me grind my teeth when watching.

First is one game piece per alliance. I can't tell you how many times I've watched a team pick up a ball, only to have it die on the field and effectively lose the game right then and there. Took them what seems like ten seconds to pick up the ball, another ten to figure out their shooter isn't working, and another ten to realize it's stuck and get another ball in play.

Second is qualifications. In years past 2:3 or 1:3 matches could be won by the powerhouse teams, but this year when your alliance partner's bumpers fall off and they get disabled after autonomous, you effectively lose the match right there. I would love to see some sort of strength of schedule correlated to seeding, and that correlation compared to OPR vs seeding. My guess is this year has more to do with luck of the draw than any other year in recent memory.

[April_robo]

Personally I am loving this game. What has been said multiple times about the match list deciding your fate, I think is not true at all. This is the second year 3548 has been at Royal Oak and we are doing extremely well. At our first district in Southfield we did have some pretty good alliances but we were still a major part of the scores being put up. We ended up being 5th seed at the end of quals. At our second district at Howell our alliances were mostly teams ranked in the 20s and below and we were the top seeded team on our alliance most of the time but we still managed to play with the big dogs all day Friday. Yes things started going wrong Saturday morning and knocked us out of the top 8 down to 13th but the number one alliance knew all the hard work we put in to get there and chose us. I do not believe that the match list decides a teams fate, it gives an opportunity to show off how qualified your robot really is. Scouting this year is one of the most important things you can do and it can change the outcome of the competition for you more than fouls. (My alliance for elims only had one foul, and we still won that match)

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by April_robo

Scouting this year is one of the most important things you can do and it can change the outcome of the competition for you more than fouls.

Very good observation.

[GBK]

I have to say that at first I did not like this game. After watching week one, it became clear that even though it was different from past games, it was a game that was going to evolve as weeks went by into a very good game. Your alliance partner getting fouls is just part of it, after all you are paired up in the qualifications at random. Human players are a big part of this game, and can cost teams matches. We lost a match this weekend, that was so stacked that is was almost unfair, yet one of the human players on our alliance managed to rack up 170 points in fouls. Looking back, maybe we should have talked to the human players better before the match to determine what they knew about the rules, Placed that player in a position that they could have done less damage and educated the player on the rules the could draw fouls on to make sure they understood the potential results.

As far as a ball landing in an opponents robot, the rules are very clear about that and even give a warning that you should design your bot so it can not end up with a ball it did not intend to get.

In closing, FIRST has been trying to make working together part of the game for a while now. I think they nailed it. If you end up with a partner that is nothing more than a box on wheels, it is up to you to figure out how to utilize them in a way that is a benefit to the alliance. Many teams have figured out how to do this very effectively. This game is not about being able to win by yourself.
Cant wait to see what the game evolves into in the next three weeks

[Cheesycakester]

I fondly remember the emcee at Arkansas mistakenly referring to the game as "Aerial Assault" in the closing ceremonies

I don't particularly have an opinion on the game as I'm also a junior and lack perspective; I hear countless recollections of how horrible 2010 was in-house and yet I hardly ever see it mentioned on CD as much as 2002 or 2003. This "ranking" of FRC games seems far less consistent than any seed results from qualification rounds this year.

[JohnSchneider]

You live and die by the sword in this game. Yeah 5 and 6 seeds have a chance in elims, but at the same time you can be put in unwinnable situations in quals. We had, on more than one occasion, teams hold the ball and keep missing shots and they wouldnt let us have it back. You end up fighting your own alliance partners in quals and thats why this game ranks low on the totem pole for me.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by animenerdjohn

You live and die by the sword in this game. Yeah 5 and 6 seeds have a chance in elims, but at the same time you can be put in unwinnable situations in quals. We had, on more than one occasion, teams hold the ball and keep missing shots and they wouldnt let us have it back. You end up fighting your own alliance partners in quals and thats why this game ranks low on the totem pole for me.

Question for the masses of CD. Is it GP to call a dead ball in this scenario?

[jeremylee]

Originally Posted by BJT

I dont remember the match or teams involved, but at wisconsin, the outcome of an elimination match was changed by 100 points in fouls. In my opinion for there to be 100 points in fouls, there should be no doubt in anyones mind what happened. For 100 foul points there should be a fire, a bloody finger on the field, or something obvious. The reality is 3 kids in the question box wondering what the hell happened. That sucks.
This game could have been one of the best.

This was us. Quaters 2, Match 3 at Wisconsin. We are in the pits already, rushing to replace popped rivets on our shooter so we can go play semis thinking we won, and then pops up the score... Us and our alliance partner across from us in the pits just drop everything and stare at the screen from the pits with our mouths wide open. We are in shock.. We ended up losing by 9 points after 100 foul points given to the opposing alliance (final score 197 to 188). We had almost doubled the opposing teams score, and yet, get sent packing. I look forward to seeing some video of this as for sure, the possession penalty is very debatable as it looked like a single bump of the ball to me from the stands. I don't know the details of the 2nd penalty, I never saw it watching the match. Also add in no call for isolation on the opposing alliance for parking to prevent pickup of a ball in the corner of the 1 point goal and wall for what seemed like an eternity, this was a very tough loss.

Rewind to Centrail IL regional. Again, 3rd match in the quarter finals. We are up and basically have the match won due to some tough defense. Opposing alliance throws a truss shot towards the end of the match that falls in a robot on our alliance. They quickly spit it out, but still, 50 point penalty. We end up losing by 5 points (133 to 128). Thus, we were up by 45 before the penalty that was in no way intentional. Some of you may have seen what our lift cylinders looked like after this match, we were damaged beyond repair inside our frame after this match, no calls as such.

Thus, our season is over losing twice in quarterfinals by technicals that really had very little impact on the match in which we had a quite large lead while knowing additional penalties were missed.

Do I hate the game? No, we've had a blast playing it this year. The strategy involved in the game is complex and very interesting. Is the game perfect? Far from it. Can these imperfections be fixed at this point, probably not. Just enjoy it while you can, because before you know it, you'll be packing up your robot preparing for next year longing to put your previous years robot on the field 1 more time like always.

[Sparkyshires]

Same thing happened at our (the Virginia) regional. Semi final 2 match 3, one alliance had won 121 to 82. An amazing match, solid on both sides, when suddenly the score was released 121 to 132. A tech foul decided it. Now I was standing in queuing waiting to start the finals match, so I didn't have a good look the entire time, but from what I saw there was no obvious tech foul damaging enough to change the outcome of the game.

I think the most damaging issue with this game is not the fouls, but the stress it puts on VOLUNTEER judges, and all the crap they get because of their calls. I have a feeling FIRST is going to take a serious bite after this year, because I don't see how any judge would return after being put to the grindstone no matter what they decided, like they did this year.

[DarrinMunter]

Only in this game, could we be picking up the ball and have someone from the other side come flying at us, run into our arms, and since they got damage, we get the penalty. Thats like me out driving a car, I rear-ended someone, and the cops give THEM a ticket because my car got damaged.

From now on all appanages will need to be made from pool noodles only.

Thanks to 93 for picking us, and 1736. Hopefully will meet up again sometime.

[jeremylee]

Originally Posted by Munter2081

Only in this game, could we be picking up the ball and have someone from the other side come flying at us, run into our arms, and since they got damage, we get the penalty. Thats like me out driving a car, I rear-ended someone, and the cops give THEM a ticket because my car got damaged.

From now on all appanages will need to be made from pool noodles only.

Thanks to 93 for picking us, and 1736. Hopefully will meet up again sometime.

Is this what the 2nd penalty was??

[Ipiano]

Originally Posted by jeremylee

I don't know the details of the 2nd penalty, I never saw it watching the match. Also add in no call for isolation on the opposing alliance for parking to prevent pickup of a ball in the corner of the 1 point goal and wall for what seemed like an eternity, this was a very tough loss.

I feel that as the driver of the opposing alliance's captain, I should input some into this conversation.

I must say that we, too, were shocked when we discovered that there were 100 points in penalties that match; we were on the way to pack up and move out. Honestly, we didn't even see the debatable possession of the ball because we were watching in horror as our robot didn't move. I do want to provide some of the details of the second penalty that match; the penalty that you didn't see.

As soon as autonomous was done, we went to prevent team 93 from obtaining the ball from the in-bounding station, as we had decided that the majority of their strategy hinged on their retrieving the ball ASAP. As we were pushing up against them(I don't remember how hard we hit them; it wasn't "ramming speed" but it may have been forceful enough to result in some of the ensuing penalty) their claw/arm became entangled inside our frame perimeter a good 4-5," and one of their wheels on the arm became hooked around our frame. As they pulled away after about 5 seconds of struggling, part of their claw snagged the power cord to our radio, unplugging it and disabling our top scoring robot for the match, resulting in the low score which the opposing alliance easily outscored.

Additionally, I would like to speak of the ball isolation you mentioned and how it looked from our perspective. I personally wasn't part of that maneuver, but I agree now replaying the match in my head that it very well could have been a foul; however the rule about isolation is very subjective. The rule you are referring to is G12-D (I would assume) which says "overt isolation or holding one or more BALLS against a FIELD element or ROBOT in an attempt to shield them" is prohibited. Our alliance members were not holding the ball against the wall, so I believe the only applicable part of that is "overt isolation." The rules say that G12 is to prevent the opposing alliance from inhibiting interaction with the ball, which is why this particular incident is in question, as the alliance was unable to touch their ball for quite a long time.

////SECTION REMOVED
I removed a section here because it was a mis-remember and I was describing a completely different match

Whether this is overt isolation or not, I don't know; the rules don't say what overt isolation is; however, my guess as to why it wasn't called is that either
A) The referees didn't see it
or
B) The fact that the ball was accessible from some sides did not qualify as "overt isolation" in the eyes of any referee that saw it.


Again, I just wanted to add our perspective to this conversation and point out that at least half of the 100 penalty points was valid as there was a very obvious robot inside frame perimeter which disabled a robot completely. As for the ball possession foul I have no idea; I was trying to figure out why our scoring robot was dead and didn't see the incident. And in regards to the ball isolation, I think we have a case of referee subjectivity as, from my perspective, it could have been perceived as a foul, but it also could make sense to not have been one.