Go to Post I'll not deprive you of the practice in reading the manual; you'll need it if you want to be an effective part of an FRC team. - Alan Anderson [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 19 votes, 4.05 average. Display Modes
  #226   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:11
Maxwell777's Avatar
Maxwell777 Maxwell777 is offline
Is allowed to touch stuff now
AKA: Jackson Gray
FRC #0842 (Falcon Robotics)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 73
Maxwell777 has a spectacular aura aboutMaxwell777 has a spectacular aura aboutMaxwell777 has a spectacular aura about
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAlum View Post
Its not the idea of being perfect a HOF team is suppose to set an example for those younger teams.
Yes, we're setting an example to the younger teams that having fun is more important than winning. We, both alliances, decided that we wanted to try to beat a standing challenge, and have fun doing it, because we both knew that the 2nd match would end just like the first.
Reply With Quote
  #227   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:12
Grim Tuesday's Avatar
Grim Tuesday Grim Tuesday is offline
Registered User
AKA: Simon Bohn
FRC #0639 (Code Red)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Baltimore MD (JHU)
Posts: 1,607
Grim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

My issue with this challenge is that it gave teams two competing goals: One to try and win the regional and the other to get more money for next year.

There is no way anyone can argue that not playing defense will increase the chance of an alliance winning. Given the sheer amount of downtime in this game, there is almost always some defense to be played to lower the opponent's score.

As a result, encouraging a team not to play defense for a cash reward directly pits "winning the match" with "helping our program for next year". These two goals should not be opposing.

All the teams in this match that we have heard from on Chief Delphi are very insistent that this decision was completely voluntary, to play as they decided to. I won't second guess their decisions; I respect the choices they made. But if I were in their shoes, I would not like to be forced to choose between trying my best to win the match and $500.

If I were given this challenge, I would vehemently oppose playing any way but the way that gave me the best chance to win. I would hate giving up the chance for $500 and I'm sure I'd take some heat from fundraisers on my team as well as potentially less financially fortunate members of my alliance.

Quote:
With Gracious Professionalism, fierce competition and mutual gain are not separate notions. Gracious professionals learn and compete like crazy, but treat one another with respect and kindness in the process. They avoid treating anyone like losers. No chest thumping tough talk, but no sticky-sweet platitudes either. Knowledge, competition, and empathy are comfortably blended.
The challenge given is an interesting twist on the 'official' GP definition. On one hand, it can be argued that 'fierce competition and mutual gain are not separate notions'. On the other hand, I wonder if not playing the match to the full potential might fall under not 'competing like crazy'.

Quote:
CoopertitionŽ produces innovation. At FIRST, Coopertition is displaying unqualified kindness and respect in the face of fierce competition. Coopertition is founded on the concept and a philosophy that teams can and should help and cooperate with each other even as they compete.

Coopertition involves learning from teammates. It is teaching teammates. It is learning from Mentors. And it is managing and being managed. Coopertition means competing always, but assisting and enabling others when you can.
The same conundrum is produced from the definition of coopertition. You assist others in fundraising for the next season but at the same time, you reduce the level of 'competing always'. Similarly, you are still competing but you have re-written the game.

There is also the issue of a slippery slope with challenges like this. What if the challenge was $500 if one alliance could hold the other to 0 points in teleop? Would it be OK to simply not try to score in the finals in an attempt to raise $1000 in two final matches?

Why is this different from 6v0 of 2010? In Breakaway, 6v0 was created by The Tournament, definitely part of the manual, and the game. It created a conflict between winning a match and winning a regional. Unlike this challenge however, it did not create a conflict between winning the regional and fundraising. It did not give a competitive advantage to better funded teams who needed the money less. It did indeed put teams in a tough situation where there is a decision teams have to make that they should not be forced to.

Last edited by Grim Tuesday : 24-03-2014 at 17:16.
Reply With Quote
  #228   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:12
Dave McLaughlin's Avatar
Dave McLaughlin Dave McLaughlin is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Pullman, WA
Posts: 299
Dave McLaughlin has a reputation beyond reputeDave McLaughlin has a reputation beyond reputeDave McLaughlin has a reputation beyond reputeDave McLaughlin has a reputation beyond reputeDave McLaughlin has a reputation beyond reputeDave McLaughlin has a reputation beyond reputeDave McLaughlin has a reputation beyond reputeDave McLaughlin has a reputation beyond reputeDave McLaughlin has a reputation beyond reputeDave McLaughlin has a reputation beyond reputeDave McLaughlin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirvash View Post
They didn't play the game how you would if liked, deal with it. Unless you have asked the GDC on how they'd like to see the game played, don't say it isn't in the spirit of things.
Do you honestly think that if I asked in the official Q&A if providing challenges with monetary rewards to teams that have the potential to alter match play is legal they would say yes?
Reply With Quote
  #229   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:13
dodar's Avatar
dodar dodar is offline
Registered User
FRC #1592 (Bionic Tigers)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Cocoa, Florida
Posts: 2,929
dodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes View Post
Exactly, and we found a way to keep them from playing defense on us.

What would your approach be, other than how we played the first match? That didn't work out so well. I'd really like to know how to win a match like that.
Dont let them get to the inbound position, dont let them truss, dont let them shoot. You guys barely even touched them.
__________________
1592(Student and Mentor) 2007-Present

Blue Banners: 2008 Colorado, 2012 Orlando, 2012 South Florida, 2014 Orlando, 2015 Buckeye

Mechanical Engineering - University of Central Florida(Class of 2016)
Reply With Quote
  #230   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:13
TheOtherGuy's Avatar
TheOtherGuy TheOtherGuy is offline
Unregistered User
AKA: Kevin Forbes
FRC #4183 (Bit Buckets)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 408
TheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar View Post
They improved the MOV by 3 points.
Read my last post, and his post.

::
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #231   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:14
RoboAlum RoboAlum is offline
Mickey D's
FRC #4841 (Optimal Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 116
RoboAlum is a jewel in the roughRoboAlum is a jewel in the roughRoboAlum is a jewel in the roughRoboAlum is a jewel in the rough
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes View Post
. I'd really like to know how to win a match like that.
Well you obviously know red would win the Autonomous period but you could of still had 60 and Gila monsters play def on 842. You guys had a good bot and could of ran the field with doing truss shots and high goal shots and 1 assist. Yes your alliance wasn't a powerhouse but there is always a chance as long as you try.
Reply With Quote
  #232   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:14
Tottanka's Avatar
Tottanka Tottanka is offline
It isnt about bots,its about humans
AKA: Liron Gurvitz
FRC #3211 (The Y Team)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Hadera, Israel
Posts: 1,420
Tottanka has a reputation beyond reputeTottanka has a reputation beyond reputeTottanka has a reputation beyond reputeTottanka has a reputation beyond reputeTottanka has a reputation beyond reputeTottanka has a reputation beyond reputeTottanka has a reputation beyond reputeTottanka has a reputation beyond reputeTottanka has a reputation beyond reputeTottanka has a reputation beyond reputeTottanka has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell777 View Post
Yes, we're setting an example to the younger teams that having fun is more important than winning. We, both alliances, decided that we wanted to try to beat a standing challenge, and have fun doing it, because we both knew that the 2nd match would end just like the first.
That is an arrogant statement.
And there are times for fun, and times for doing your best. Regional finals - is times for doing your best (which is usually more fun than anything else, by the way).
To me, losing while doing your best, is better than winning this challange.
__________________
My FRC record: 10 Years,FTA (2008-9), 3 Teams(1947,2669,3211).3 RCA, 1 Championship EI(2016), 1 Divisional finalist (2016), 1 Regional winner.
Israeli 2016 Volunteer of the year.
Reply With Quote
  #233   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:14
dodar's Avatar
dodar dodar is offline
Registered User
FRC #1592 (Bionic Tigers)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Cocoa, Florida
Posts: 2,929
dodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy View Post
Read my last post, and his post.

::
Its not beating a dead horse if that is gonna keep being his response to "they did better." I can guarantee you that if they had played more/better defense the MOV would have been reduced by a lot more than 3.
__________________
1592(Student and Mentor) 2007-Present

Blue Banners: 2008 Colorado, 2012 Orlando, 2012 South Florida, 2014 Orlando, 2015 Buckeye

Mechanical Engineering - University of Central Florida(Class of 2016)
Reply With Quote
  #234   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:16
bduddy bduddy is offline
Registered User
FRC #0840 (ART)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: San Bruno, CA
Posts: 869
bduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond reputebduddy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell777 View Post
Yes, we're setting an example to the younger teams that having fun is more important than winning. We, both alliances, decided that we wanted to try to beat a standing challenge, and have fun doing it, because we both knew that the 2nd match would end just like the first.
That's one of the worst examples you could possibly set. Lose the first match? Just give up!
__________________

Does anyone else remember when TBA signatures actually worked?
Reply With Quote
  #235   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:18
TheOtherGuy's Avatar
TheOtherGuy TheOtherGuy is offline
Unregistered User
AKA: Kevin Forbes
FRC #4183 (Bit Buckets)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 408
TheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar View Post
Its not beating a dead horse if that is gonna keep being his response to "they did better." I can guarantee you that if they had played more/better defense the MOV would have been reduced by a lot more than 3.
It is beating a dead horse. We're choosing different metrics on how the blue alliance performed. Either is valid, this argument is going nowhere. Ergo, dead horse.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #236   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:19
Abhishek R Abhishek R is offline
Registered User
FRC #0624
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 892
Abhishek R has a reputation beyond reputeAbhishek R has a reputation beyond reputeAbhishek R has a reputation beyond reputeAbhishek R has a reputation beyond reputeAbhishek R has a reputation beyond reputeAbhishek R has a reputation beyond reputeAbhishek R has a reputation beyond reputeAbhishek R has a reputation beyond reputeAbhishek R has a reputation beyond reputeAbhishek R has a reputation beyond reputeAbhishek R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell777 View Post
Yes, we're setting an example to the younger teams that having fun is more important than winning. We, both alliances, decided that we wanted to try to beat a standing challenge, and have fun doing it, because we both knew that the 2nd match would end just like the first.
I'm hearing that you can't have fun by trying to win the match because you lost the first one. Teams have several times taken sets to three and sometimes even advanced from there.
__________________
2012 - 2015 : 624 CRyptonite
Team Website
Reply With Quote
  #237   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:20
dodar's Avatar
dodar dodar is offline
Registered User
FRC #1592 (Bionic Tigers)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Cocoa, Florida
Posts: 2,929
dodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy View Post
It is beating a dead horse. We're choosing different metrics on how the blue alliance performed. Either is valid, this argument is going nowhere. Ergo, dead horse.
If you think we are using different metrics then you are basing your metrics of "winning" off of the $500 challenge instead of actually winning the match.
__________________
1592(Student and Mentor) 2007-Present

Blue Banners: 2008 Colorado, 2012 Orlando, 2012 South Florida, 2014 Orlando, 2015 Buckeye

Mechanical Engineering - University of Central Florida(Class of 2016)
Reply With Quote
  #238   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:24
Maxwell777's Avatar
Maxwell777 Maxwell777 is offline
Is allowed to touch stuff now
AKA: Jackson Gray
FRC #0842 (Falcon Robotics)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 73
Maxwell777 has a spectacular aura aboutMaxwell777 has a spectacular aura aboutMaxwell777 has a spectacular aura about
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tottanka View Post
That is an arrogant statement.
And there are times for fun, and times for doing your best. Regional finals - is times for doing your best (which is usually more fun than anything else, by the way).
To me, losing while doing your best, is better than winning this challange.
I cannot find his post, but I believe that earlier the driver from team 60 (Blue), said that the last match was the best match that he had played that day. We all tried our best, the only difference was that we tried our best to break 200 on both sides.

Subnote: I had a feeling that it would come off as arrogant. My apologies, but I still think that we had the advantage.
Reply With Quote
  #239   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:25
TheOtherGuy's Avatar
TheOtherGuy TheOtherGuy is offline
Unregistered User
AKA: Kevin Forbes
FRC #4183 (Bit Buckets)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 408
TheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar View Post
If you think we are using different metrics then you are basing your metrics of "winning" off of the $500 challenge instead of actually winning the match.
No. You are using margin of victory. I am using the ratio between scores. Different metrics.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #240   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2014, 17:25
Maxwell777's Avatar
Maxwell777 Maxwell777 is offline
Is allowed to touch stuff now
AKA: Jackson Gray
FRC #0842 (Falcon Robotics)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 73
Maxwell777 has a spectacular aura aboutMaxwell777 has a spectacular aura aboutMaxwell777 has a spectacular aura about
Re: 301 points! and could have done more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek R View Post
I'm hearing that you can't have fun by trying to win the match because you lost the first one. Teams have several times taken sets to three and sometimes even advanced from there.
As I said earlier:

I cannot find his post, but I believe that earlier the driver from team 60 (Blue), said that the last match was the best match that he had played that day.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:23.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi