Video Stealing

[nuggetsyl]

Originally Posted by Lucario

It can be reasonably argued that this work is for educational purposes (as it educates the public) and the website, seeing that it is devoid of advertisements, seems to be of a non-profit nature.

OK I am going to go post every episode of pawn stars and myth busters on YouTube. I won't ask for ads and just tell the discovery channel and history channel its educational so I won't get in trouble.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Not that it makes things right or anything, but an offended party that has had its video ripped and uploaded to a different video sharing site can always file a DMCA takedown with said video sharing site. As long as you're the copyright holder of the material, you can do that and it's likely to get the video taken down or at least get the offender put on notice if enough complaints are made.

Mind you, you need to be that actual copyright holder for the material. If all you did was record the FIRST provided video stream, then it's probably FIRST that's the copyright holder, since they did all the production, etc. I think unedited, uncommented video from your own camera of an FRC event is probably shaky on whether you're the copyright holder. And something like RoboShow is very clearly original material that the RoboShow guys hold the copyright to.

[nuggetsyl]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Not that it makes things right or anything, but an offended party that has had its video ripped and uploaded to a different video sharing site can always file a DMCA takedown with said video sharing site. As long as you're the copyright holder of the material, you can do that and it's likely to get the video taken down or at least get the offender put on notice if enough complaints are made.

Mind you, you need to be that actual copyright holder for the material. If all you did was record the FIRST provided video stream, then it's probably FIRST that's the copyright holder, since they did all the production, etc. I think unedited, uncommented video from your own camera of an FRC event is probably shaky on whether you're the copyright holder. And something like RoboShow is very clearly original material that the RoboShow guys hold the copyright to.

I agree 100%

[Bochek]

Everyone,

I don't have time right now to write an at length response to this entire thread. But I would like to make sure you all know that I am aware of the thread. I'm going to do my best with the time I have right now to respond to some comments, I will get to the rest later tonight or tomorrow.

If you read through my responses to the last thread I stated that

I have plans to add a "video provided by" line to the page, but things take time. I am not a programmer, I pay to have the site developed.

I understand that crediting the source of the videos is an important bit that I have forgotten when originally developing the site.

which like Hallry's email never got a response

I have responded to 2 emails from him. I have asked for proof of ownership of the YouTube account. I have not heard back yet. I will send him a PM tonight.


From what I can read, there are 2 main problems at hand. One is the fact that we don't credit the source, which I will fix. Second is the people who would rather fight to call something theirs (which I'm not trying to take away from them) instead of help the cause and help spread the word of FIRST.

Requesting video take downs is of benefit to no one.

If people have specific issues. Lets come up with ideas to solve them instead of just complaining.

- Bochek

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by Bochek

I have responded to 2 emails from him. I have asked for proof of ownership of the YouTube account. I have not heard back yet. I will send him a PM tonight.

What email account did you use to reply back with? I have not recieved a reply on either of the 2 email accounts that I emailed the administrator account with.

EDIT: I've check through all of the emails on both accounts...Can't find anything from WFN.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Bochek

I have responded to 2 emails from him. I have asked for proof of ownership of the YouTube account. I have not heard back yet. I will send him a PM tonight.

This is fairly straightforward. You're breaking the youtube terms of service.

https://www.youtube.com/static?template=terms
(section 4)

You're also connecting that breach with the FIRST name.

[scottandme]

Originally Posted by Bochek

From what I can read, there are 2 main problems at hand. One is the fact that we don't credit the source, which I will fix. Second is the people who would rather fight to call something theirs (which I'm not trying to take away from them) instead of help the cause and help spread the word of FIRST.

Requesting video take downs is of benefit to no one.

If people have specific issues. Lets come up with ideas to solve them instead of just complaining.

Well, those videos are theirs, they filmed, edited, and published them in a medium of their choice (youtube). Sounds like you're the one fighting to call something yours, when it's clearly not.

If we're giving out gold stars for "spreading the word of FIRST" - who would you give more credit to...

A) The teams filming, editing, and uploading events - who work with the admins of TBA to link match results to match video.

or

B) Someone using a bot to download videos from youtube, upload them to a Vimeo account, and serving them on a superfluous website laden with ads.

If your view is that re-uploading videos to a separate account is beneficial - knock yourself out. But to do so without the permission of the creator (in this case the explicit disapproval of the creator), isn't the proper way to go about it. I know that team 25 has purposely not published their match video from Hatboro since they don't want you to rip and re-upload it. That's not a net gain for the FIRST community.

[Lucario]

Originally Posted by scottandme

If we're giving out gold stars for "spreading the word of FIRST" - who would you give more credit to...

A) The teams filming, editing, and uploading events - who work with the admins of TBA to link match results to match video.

or

B) Someone using a bot to download videos from youtube, upload them to a Vimeo account, and serving them on a superfluous website laden with ads.

I'd say, who cares? The easiest behavior to change is your own.

Instead of trying to shut them down, why not just roll with it? If you want to take credit for this worthy activity, why not just talk about how many of your videos are featured on the distribution site? Uploading credit is certainly something to ask for, but in the case of an uncooperative host, a small watermark in the corner will certainly do the trick.

Just talk about how you're working with other teams/people to expand FIRST beyond your own personal capabilities.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Lucario

I'd say, who cares? The easiest behavior to change is your own.

Instead of trying to shut them down, why not just roll with it? If you want to take credit for this worthy activity, why not just talk about how many of your videos are featured on the distribution site? Uploading credit is certainly something to ask for, but in the case of an uncooperative host, a small watermark in the corner will certainly do the trick.

Just talk about how you're working with other teams/people to expand FIRST beyond your own personal capabilities.

The people who spent the time collecting and editing the videos???

It is not the responsibility of the people "providing" (its not really providing at the moment because they were never asked) the content to talk about this on their own. This is the responsibility of whomever is running the website. How about I grab pictures of you off of Facebook (or other media site) and use them on a website for promotional work. I'm not going to ask you can just tell everyone that its you. This is not how the real world works.

What they are doing is great in that they are providing a database of videos for matches. While redundant since we have TBA they each have their own way of doing things, every good thing will have competition. With that being said, more people would be open to the idea of linking their match videos to these websites if they are 1. ASKED and 2. credit is given either by a disclaimer or a link to the original work.

To whomever is running this: please stop taking videos for the time being and resume once you come up with a process for asking for permission and giving credit where it is due. You are only hurting yourself more by creating a bad reputation of your website. I believe your intentions are good to create a better video database considering when you started your efforts TBA wasn't getting much new content.

[Lucario]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

It is not the responsibility of the people "providing" (its not really providing at the moment because they were never asked) the content to talk about this on their own. This is the responsibility of whomever is running the website. How about I grab pictures of you off of Facebook (or other media site) and use them on a website for promotional work. I'm not going to ask you can just tell everyone that its you. This is not how the real world works.

Legally, this is the way the world works in the case of fair use, which is why determining if it falls under that category is so pivotal in this discussion. I can take a photo off the internet and show it to a classroom for educational purposes- a case that definitely falls within the area of fair use.

Yes, credit should be given where credit is due, as I mention in my above post, but modifying their behavior is not something entirely within your control, while adapting to it certainly is.

(You also won't find me on Facebook- I have a thing against them )

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Bochek

From what I can read, there are 2 main problems at hand. One is the fact that we don't credit the source, which I will fix. Second is the people who would rather fight to call something theirs (which I'm not trying to take away from them) instead of help the cause and help spread the word of FIRST.
- Bochek

I'm sorry, but you don't get to claim the moral high ground here or try to shame people who are objecting to your appropriation of their hard work and effort to record matches. You don't get to decide for those people what the best use and display of their work is, because you didn't do it. Allow me to demonstrate:

I think because of the controversy over your site, your brand is compromised and could benefit from relaunching under a different name with different management to provide a clean break from said controversies. I demand you provide me all the supporting source of your site so I can make the necessary changes and relaunch it under my management as "ThisIsFIRST". Under my new management it will be much more successful at helping the cause and spreading the word of FIRST. So you should totally hand over all that source to paid to develop. I'll (obviously) just rip the content from your video sharing accounts myself.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Bochek

Everyone,

<snip>

Are you serious? Your site is being counteractive to the "message and unity" you seem to be promoting. Wouldn't FIRST benefit more from having everything aggregated in one place with everythinf(match scores, awards, videos, basically TBA)?

I know 1676 pride themselves on the significant amount of match videos they post. Saying you "forgot to credit them" is just as bad as ignoring it completely. Its great that you webcast and archive all Canadian events, but is it necessary to host every other video?

Either way if you decide to start asking permission from other teams to host their videos, I can guarantee you're going to have a hard time getting approvals from some people...

[Steve W]

People, calm down. I am giving everyone 24 hours to think. I will reopen thread tomorrow.

[Steve W]

Good morning and welcome to another day of FIRST. I have opened this thread hoping that civilized conversation can take place. WE ARE FIRST! What is said here reflects who we are and what we represent please take that into account while posting. I hope that I can check this thread during the day and see positive, respectful posts. We will not all agree on everything but we can still be respectful of each other.

Thanks

[Hallry]

FYI, to those unaware, from the 'Help Build the Archive!' thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=35

WatchFIRSTNow has been gracious enough to remove the footage that I wanted to be taken down, and I'm sure if FiM or anyone else wants their videos deleted from WFN's account, all they have to do is ask. Thank you, WatchFIRSTNow, for complying with our request.

That said, I would recommend the permanent closure of this thread. These posts are full of harsh insults and personal attacks, and I doubt anything positive will come of it in the future other than pointless arguments over 'facts' the people can't agree on.

However, if anyone has constructive suggestions for how to improve WFN or archiving in general, I'm sure it would be gladly appreciated, but perhaps just PM those in charge or start a new separate thread for it instead of continuing this black hole.

Thank you to everyone who provided their opinion in the prior posts.