Video Stealing

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by George Nishimura

I think the way TBA works is great. The only issue is that there is no assurance that those videos won't disappear if individual user accounts are deleted/banned for some reason (I think there are already a few dead links on TBA).

If the community could store/manage the content, it would help safeguard against that possibility.

I completely agree. What if TBA starts a Dropbox/Box.com account where uploaders can voluntarily submit their match videos (similar to what FIRST did with the Dean's HW Submissions this year), in case they want their footage to be saved if for some reason their account is deleted in the future. If their account is deleted, then TBA would be able to upload the videos on their own (since they got the okay from the uploader) and thus they're saved. You can't force uploaders to preserve their footage if they don't want to, after all, it is their's. But if they want to, they'll have the option.

Originally Posted by George Nishimura

Access to the analytics for page/load views per video is definitely possible. YouTube already does it (sometimes). Would teams be fine with those statistics, versus the 'channel views' that the Panteras used?

It is extremely simple for a team to access their YouTube Channel's analytics page and get all kinds of statistics. But let's say a team has 90 videos that have been taken and uploaded on WFN's account. How would that team access the view count/minute watched data for those videos, and/or include it in the graph such as Panteras has done? This will also take away greatly from the number of page visits their channel in general receives. Why should teams have to compromise for a service that they provide by recording and posting the footage?

[Lucario]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Incorrect. If I take code from a non commercial product and put it in an open source project it's the same situation. I'm taking someone else's work and claiming it as my own.

True; I should have been more verbose in my previous statement. The other critical part to this issue is that it is arguably used for educational purposes while also being non-damaging to the original copyright holder.

Nonprofits have goals that can be hindered with the theft of intellectual property, but downloading non-commercial code to teach a class (assuming this teaching does not damage the copyright holder) is fair game under fair use.

[Nirvash]

Originally Posted by Lucario

True; I should have been more verbose in my previous statement. The other critical part to this issue is that it is arguably used for educational purposes while also being non-damaging to the original copyright holder.

Nonprofits have goals that can be hindered with the theft of intellectual property, but downloading non-commercial code to teach a class (assuming this teaching does not damage the copyright holder) is fair game under fair use.

It is damaging the copyright holder though, the copyright holder can no longer create statistics on the use of the videos and the videos are being shown without credit to the copyright holder.

[Lucario]

Originally Posted by Nirvash

It is damaging the copyright holder though, the copyright holder can no longer create statistics on the use of the videos and the videos are being shown without credit to the copyright holder.

And so the copyright holders would be able to stand to sue. However, the case that they can no longer create statistics on the usage of videos seems to be weaker than the case that these videos are a valuable educational resource (as I have gathered from the other posts in this thread; attribution also has no place in Fair Use law).

[George Nishimura]

Originally Posted by Hallry

I completely agree. What if TBA starts a Dropbox/Box.com account where uploaders can voluntarily submit their match videos (similar to what FIRST did with the Dean's HW Submissions this year), in case they want their footage to be saved if for some reason their account is deleted in the future. If their account is deleted, then TBA would be able to upload the videos on their own (since they got the okay from the uploader) and thus they're saved. You can't force uploaders to preserve their footage if they don't want to, after all, it is their's. But if they want to, they'll have the option.

It seems like this would be the easiest, most workable solution.

Unless someone wants to go the extra mile and provide a means of letting teams easily gain access to all the analytics that they want, embedding and a backup database (firstvideoarchive?) for archiving purposes seems the way to go.

Now that I understand the situation a little more, I do agree that regardless of legality, there should be an etiquette established where if you want to use someone else's match footage:

- ask and comply with their requirements for using it

or

- embed

And hopefully we can put together a comprehensive archive that everyone is willing to put their content in it (for the sake of the community).

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Lucario

And so the copyright holders would be able to stand to sue. However, the case that they can no longer create statistics on the usage of videos seems to be weaker than the case that these videos are a valuable educational resource (as I have gathered from the other posts in this thread; attribution also has no place in Fair Use law).

As they are already publicly available your case of "educational resource" is shaky at best. Allow me to simplify this issue, you're grasping at straws.

[Steve W]

People, calm down. I am giving everyone 24 hours to think. I will reopen thread tomorrow.

[Steve W]

Good morning and welcome to another day of FIRST. I have opened this thread hoping that civilized conversation can take place. WE ARE FIRST! What is said here reflects who we are and what we represent please take that into account while posting. I hope that I can check this thread during the day and see positive, respectful posts. We will not all agree on everything but we can still be respectful of each other.

Thanks

[Hallry]

FYI, to those unaware, from the 'Help Build the Archive!' thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=35

WatchFIRSTNow has been gracious enough to remove the footage that I wanted to be taken down, and I'm sure if FiM or anyone else wants their videos deleted from WFN's account, all they have to do is ask. Thank you, WatchFIRSTNow, for complying with our request.

That said, I would recommend the permanent closure of this thread. These posts are full of harsh insults and personal attacks, and I doubt anything positive will come of it in the future other than pointless arguments over 'facts' the people can't agree on.

However, if anyone has constructive suggestions for how to improve WFN or archiving in general, I'm sure it would be gladly appreciated, but perhaps just PM those in charge or start a new separate thread for it instead of continuing this black hole.

Thank you to everyone who provided their opinion in the prior posts.

[DonRotolo]

OK folks, nothing to see here, just move along now.

I just love happy endings

[Zach O]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

OK folks, nothing to see here, just move along now.

I just love happy endings

I think one incident in a larger situation was addressed and corrected, but there's still several more to go

[George Nishimura]

Originally Posted by Zach O

I think one incident in a larger situation was addressed and corrected, but there's still several more to go

As someone who wandered in to this discussion without much prior knowledge, what is the current overall picture, and what are all the other issues?

[KelliV]

OK... I tried to avoid commenting on this whole thing, I really did. At this point I need to say something. Many of you go through engineering school, and would be devastated if somebody took everything you worked hard to create and put it under their name. Well, I went to film school, and I can tell you that what is happening when you steal someone's video (youtube or not, educational or not) you are doing the same thing as someone who would steal an item or idea an engineer created.

Originally Posted by Lucario

True; I should have been more verbose in my previous statement. The other critical part to this issue is that it is arguably used for educational purposes while also being non-damaging to the original copyright holder.

As said by Nirvash this is a HUGE issue. I generate viewer statistics on everything I create, then use these when applying for jobs. Users generally poke around a bit on my page if they like something on it, which generates more user interaction with my videos and in turn gets me more exposure.

While I applaud people for donating their footage, and WatchFIRSTNow for removing the footage they basically stole, some people make a living on film and it shouldn't be assumed that everyone wants their footage included.

The next time you steal a video take a minute to realize that you stole from a human being, you took their work, put your name on it, and went on with your day while they are stuck wondering why they are losing viewership.

-Kelli

[Zach O]

So have we forgotten about this issue yet? There's still tons of un-original content, without citation or a link back, still with ads.

[Steve W]

Thread is being closed as per requests.