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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-03-2014, 22:31
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

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Originally Posted by lanna.stars View Post
I'm not sure why everyone is getting upset over this rather be grateful someone is taking the time out of THEIR own busy lives UNPAID (in Canada the Mentors don't get paid FYI) to put together this wonderful archive. No legal laws were broken... besides international cyber laws a very limited... Yes perhaps the Watchfirstnow team should have asked but what's done is done and this is a great database to be creating.

I think we are forgetting what FIRST is about that is working together to collaborate on ideas and information... aka SHARING VIDEOS to spread the word of FIRST and STEM.

Let's look at the bigger picture here.

Thank you watchfirstnow Team!
Try having your work purloined and see how you feel about it.

They only had to ask, but since they did not, it is copyright infringement, and I intend to pursue that.

Simply put: WFN has taken a teams work and is using it without permission. Intellectual Property Theft may be legal in Canada, but not in the United States.
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Unread 27-03-2014, 22:46
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

Glad to see that this party didn't stop. Hope this drama can tide everyone over until someone gets "wronged" in eliminations on Saturday.

A lot of people watch stuff that happens on this site and in the greater community. Including a lot of kids.

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Unread 27-03-2014, 23:17
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

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Originally Posted by PayneTrain View Post
"♫ You take the high road and I'll just sit here and complain on the internet ♫"
As author Lisa Kleypas said, "A good conversation always involves a certain amount of complaining."
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Unread 27-03-2014, 23:23
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PayneTrain View Post
Glad to see that this party didn't stop. Hope this drama can tide everyone over until someone gets "wronged" in eliminations on Saturday.

A lot of people watch stuff that happens on this site and in the greater community. Including a lot of kids.

"♫ You take the high road and I'll just sit here and complain on the internet ♫"
You just made yourself look more childish than everyone in this thread...
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Unread 27-03-2014, 23:48
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

Alright, let's stop this immature mudslinging and act like grown-ups. We all have been behaving like little kids in both this thread and in Shaun's (now-mod-closed) 'Video Stealing' thread.

WatchFIRSTNow has been gracious enough to remove the footage that I wanted to be taken down, and I'm sure if anyone else wants their footage deleted from WFN's account, all they have to do is ask. Thank you, WatchFIRSTNow, for complying with our request.

With that, how about the rest of us now show our GP to WatchFIRSTNow and bring this thread back to what they created it for. If you recorded an event and want to post a link to your playlist for WatchFIRSTNow to transfer to their Vimeo account, please do so below.

Also, if anyone has constructive suggestions for how to improve WFN or archiving in general, I'm sure it would be gladly appreciated, but perhaps PM those in charge or start a new separate thread for it instead of further bogging down and cluttering WatchFIRSTNow's thread.

P.S. - Mods, I know it was said that you would keep the 'Video Stealing' thread locked for 24 hours. Why don't we just keep that thread locked permanently so no more harm is done.
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Last edited by Hallry : 28-03-2014 at 00:21.
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  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-03-2014, 00:36
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

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Originally Posted by Hallry View Post
and I'm sure if anyone else wants their footage deleted from WFN's account, all they have to do is ask. Thank you, WatchFIRSTNow, for complying with our request.
It'd be excellent if they would just take down the content that isn't theirs, without being asked. There's still three years worth of FiM footage uploaded, still with ads underneath it.
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Unread 28-03-2014, 01:14
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonRotolo View Post
Try having your work purloined and see how you feel about it.

They only had to ask, but since they did not, it is copyright infringement, and I intend to pursue that.

Simply put: WFN has taken a teams work and is using it without permission. Intellectual Property Theft may be legal in Canada, but not in the United States.
I'm not sure how you can call it "work" per se but when it comes to any sort of element of FIRST and online videos and pictures I would be honoured for my stuff to be spread about the community. Yes the common courtesy is to ask but we also have to remember that WHATEVER is posted on the internet is pretty much free game since there isn't exactly an INTERNATIONAL Cyberlaw that stipulates or mandates anything. Yes there are "Terms and Service Agreements" but how often would they actually hold up in civil court? Keep in mind the team affected the most is currently from the USA and WFN is run by Canadians.

Again I will reiterate what I have said before... this should NOT be about legalities but rather continuing to spread the word of FIRST via archived matches. WFN isn't altering the videos, they are simply moving it from one server to another so everything is in one space and doesn't get lost years down the road if teams shutdown.

Basically what it boils down to is the WFN needs to work out some kinks. They are ASKING for solutions and this is your OPPORTUNITY. Resolve the issues without getting into your legal resources. Suing people over this would be the most stupid thing I will EVER see because it will actually most likely do MORE HARM than good.

REMEMBER what we are preaching about... STEM Education... Inspiring Science and Technology AND remember who we are doing it for... the STUDENTS! Teaching them to reach out to a legal power rather than civilly working out the issues personally is not the way I would handle the situation.

Let's put on our thinking caps and give WFN some realistic solutions they can work with and develop (this isn't going to happen over night folks).

I leave you with this article...

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Unread 28-03-2014, 02:12
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lanna.stars View Post
I'm not sure how you can call it "work" per se but when it comes to any sort of element of FIRST and online videos and pictures I would be honoured for my stuff to be spread about the community.
If created in the U.S., it's a copyrighted work if it is a creative work of authorship fixed in a tangible medium of expression.

I didn't actually view the allegedly infringing material, so I'm curious: was 1676's footage original (i.e. the video was a creative work by someone on the team1), or was it a direct copy of FIRST's feed? Because if it was a direct copy, no matter how much work you put into making that direct copy, no new copyright exists.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by lanna.stars View Post
Yes the common courtesy is to ask but we also have to remember that WHATEVER is posted on the internet is pretty much free game since there isn't exactly an INTERNATIONAL Cyberlaw that stipulates or mandates anything. Yes there are "Terms and Service Agreements" but how often would they actually hold up in civil court? Keep in mind the team affected the most is currently from the USA and WFN is run by Canadians.
As for the question of whether it's enforceable in Canada, yes, it probably is, if the copyright holder is willing to bear substantial inconvenience. There actually are international treaties that govern copyright that specify procedures for handling foreign copyrights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lanna.stars View Post
Let's put on our thinking caps and give WFN some realistic solutions they can work with and develop (this isn't going to happen over night folks).
I'm still curious about their intentions, and whether they intended to claim fair use/fair dealing, intended to infringe, or didn't know one way or another.

1 For completeness: or, was the copyright assigned to the team or its representatives (official or unofficial)?
2 There is, of course, ambiguity about what a direct copy is—but the core consideration is that only creativity can create a copyright.
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Unread 28-03-2014, 10:50
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Lall View Post
If created in the U.S., it's a copyrighted work if it is a creative work of authorship fixed in a tangible medium of expression.

I didn't actually view the allegedly infringing material, so I'm curious: was 1676's footage original (i.e. the video was a creative work by someone on the team1), or was it a direct copy of FIRST's feed? Because if it was a direct copy, no matter how much work you put into making that direct copy, no new copyright exists.2
It's not. They sit in the stands and--with almost ridiculous diligence--record every match.

I doubt Ryan is talking about suing anyone. Is it legal? I don't know, and frankly I don't care. Would your grandmother be ok with you copying someone's hard work and getting something out of it for yourself without asking? Use your own compass. Mine says it doesn't matter what other good could come of it, you're taking something (video views) from someone, you ask and you credit.
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Unread 28-03-2014, 10:54
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lanna.stars View Post
Again I will reiterate what I have said before... this should NOT be about legalities but rather continuing to spread the word of FIRST via archived matches. WFN isn't altering the videos, they are simply moving it from one server to another so everything is in one space and doesn't get lost years down the road if teams shutdown.
I still think this is a valid thing to do. We barely have any match footage from 2004 save some matches at Championship and a few others here and there on YouTube. No I don't think YouTube accounts are just going to go away, but stranger things have happened and it never hurts to have a copy as a backup.

But I think the appropriate way to handle it would have been to ask if you could archive their content first, not just going ahead & doing it. Always get permission when it comes to re-using & re-hosting someone elses video content. If you didn't capture it & edit it yourself, you need to ask.
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Unread 28-03-2014, 10:59
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

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It's not. They sit in the stands and--with almost ridiculous diligence--record every match.
I should hope that would be award-winning diligence.
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Unread 28-03-2014, 16:52
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

So quick question on feasibility:

(not an original idea by the way, it was hinted at in the other thread)

The stated benefit of WFN over TBA is that WFN's archives are potentially more permanent, as long as WFN stays around or transitions maintenance of the archive if they ever move on.

The downsides of centralizing the videos are that you imply ownership of the material, but also that you also steer traffic away from the original hosting location. I think an embedded video (like on TBA) still doesn't highlight the work a team does to contribute the video very effectively (as say, a watermark with the team logo/#), but at least the view counts hit their YouTube account, not a 3rd party's.

Would it be an effective compromise for TBA/WFN to freely rip a 2nd copy of any video they want to maintain a backup database, and on each landing page for a video you have an embedded video/link on the top to the original source, and a "visually unappealing" simple link to the backup video in their database? I would think that 99%+ of the traffic would go through the first link, until the link breaks, and people would access the backup. As long as the content creators are diligent about keeping their videos accessible, which most of the teams concerned about infringement would likely be... traffic continues to be driven through the source accounts of the video instead of the backup copy.

Thoughts?
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Unread 28-03-2014, 16:59
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

Speaking of archiving, what happened to the GTRE 2012 match footage? It used to be on WFN's vimeo account, but now the matches are only available on YouTube .
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Unread 28-03-2014, 17:25
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

I think the Dropbox/Box solution, or server set up with ZendTo, or maybe even a GoogleDrive with GoFileDrop would be a lot simpler and a lot easier to settle.

Everyone submits their videos voluntarily, and we have a 'write-only' archive (with special read-only permissions). So everyone still has control over how their video is displayed/showcased, but we still have the back-up in case accounts are lost/videos disappear in the future.
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Unread 28-03-2014, 18:02
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Re: Help Build The Archive!

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Originally Posted by George Nishimura View Post
I think the Dropbox/Box solution, or server set up with ZendTo, or maybe even a GoogleDrive with GoFileDrop would be a lot simpler and a lot easier to settle.

Everyone submits their videos voluntarily, and we have a 'write-only' archive (with special read-only permissions). So everyone still has control over how their video is displayed/showcased, but we still have the back-up in case accounts are lost/videos disappear in the future.
Yeah, this was brought up in the other thread
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I completely agree. What if TBA starts a Dropbox/Box.com account where uploaders can voluntarily submit their match videos (similar to what FIRST did with the Dean's HW Submissions this year), in case they want their footage to be saved if for some reason their account is deleted in the future. If their account is deleted, then TBA would be able to upload the videos on their own (since they got the okay from the uploader) and thus they're saved. You can't force uploaders to preserve their footage if they don't want to, after all, it is their's. But if they want to, they'll have the option.
I like the idea, in theory, but am not sure what the best way to accomplish it technologically is. Videos are big, and server storage costs money. If we use Dropbox/Box, those can act as CDNs and other sites can embed from there. But we'd then have the problem of limited storage (50 gig on box - that goes away quickly when you're storing limits) and problems of bandwith usage (something like this could be against the TOS and get the account banned).

Or, I know that TBA runs on Google App Engine. That charges $0.026 / GB / month, but also charges $0.12 / GB of outgoing data (source). While cheap, those numbers are nonzero, and someone would have to pay for them. Plus, one of the reasons TBA moved to their current YouTube solution was to avoid having to pay for data storage for tons of video.

But I bet there's a way we can come up with something that works for everybody, a solution is out there somewhere
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