Why does everyone hate this game so much?

[221Sarahborg]

I haven't gotten to reading other opinions of the game, but some of the points that the original post I agree with and others I don't.

Saying the game is worse than the 2003 game, I just watched the video for the game, Stack Attack, which seems bad in it's own ways. This game has it's own issues, I can easily complain about with how big the defense seems to be in my own opinion. I could easily go on about the pros and cons at this game, compared to my interest in last year's.

With fouls being the contenders, I can agree that there are matches that have seen that just because of a single human player error an alliance has last the match, I have been on both sides of those matches. There's been matches where I've seen over 100 foul points have been added to matches and have made drastic changes to outcomes of matches and rankings.

I agree to the original post when it says that that's a part of having a good outcome is to input your alliance members that might be new or having a rough year to their best abilities and to use them to your advantage as defense or this year even as a robot that is for intake and the first assist. That's the big part of having Assisting as a large part of your alliance in winning with assists helping your score (and your ranking).

This game certainly has a lot of ups and downs with how it was played and scored, my personal opinion is that it could be better and the way the single game piece and fouls we used made it not as enjoyable as I think it could have been, and the rules for certain parts of competition could be improved as always I could see improvements in the ways things work in FIRST. Sadly my team's competition time in Aerial Assist is done until our off-season next school year.

[Kingland093]

I'm not a big fan of this game for a few reasons.
My team was in a very weak regional and in almost every single qualifying match, we were stuck with really bad robots. As a result, we went 1-9 and were ranked 62nd out of 63. It was really frustrating because every round, someone's shooter broke, or the refs didn't notice that we were calling a dead ball for 30 seconds or one of our partners got a foul. Our robot was running great and was pretty decent.
Basically what I'm saying is that since so much emphasis is placed on your alliance, a decent robot in a field of bad ones won't do well and won't get the attention of any scouts of the good teams

(apologies if I sound like a sore loser and/or really ranty)

However, this makes elims really awesome to watch!!!

[Anupam Goli]

After Palmetto, my opinion of the game wasn't great, but I wasn't complaining too much yet. Now that Peachtree has passed, my patience with this game and the way its officiated is completely gone. Giving the refs so much to do, leaving the gray area for G27 calls, pedestal issues, and the fact that possession of a ball is still a gray area absolutely killed our shot to be in a picking position for alliance selection. (Ask 2415 about inconsistent rulings between regionals, they'd love to tell you about it). One of the finals matches in eliminations had to be stopped and redone due to a pedestal issue, and teams were cheated out of potential assist and teleop points in some quals matches due to 20+ second pedestal delays. I'm almost glad our season's over, so we don't have to deal with the headache that is Aerial Assist anymore.

[magnets]

The game concept? Great.
Most elimination rounds? Pretty darn exciting.
The implementation? Horrible.

There is no consistency between events and matches. On webcasts, I keep hearing the words "technical foul assessed for entering the frame perimeter of a robot". What rule is that? Honestly, when a technical foul is called, a rule should really be cited.

Also, really subjective words, like "trapping" your opponents ball, "aggressive", "deliberate" (if I don't like you, your robot always "deliberately" did it...) and "high-speed" "ramming" are interpreted differently by everybody. At this point, there is literally no excuse for pedestal delays. It's been 5 weeks since the first issue was reported, and the technology to turn on a light at a certain time should not be too advanced for FIRST. It's a robotics competition. If this huge organization can't figure it out, I'm sure some members of the FIRST community could find a clever solution to turn on the pedestal light, like a light switch

At this point FIRST should also just give up with the assist lights. I'm not sure what they really do, other than stress out the drivers. The assist dots on the webcast change a good 15 seconds before the lights update.

[cadandcookies]

I actually like this game.

It's unfortunate that the many good ideas have been poisoned by an ambiguous and ill-defined rule set and a lack of enough referees at events.

Frankly I'm surprised that there haven't been more complaints at competitions. It's one thing for us teams who are familiar with the rules and can understand why fouls are given to see a match decided by foul points, but it's another for parents or passer-byes who see a clean looking match swing another way because of heavy foul points. I can't count the number of questions I got on the rules this weekend from not only spectators, but also teams who were wondering why exactly they were disabled before the match started (and I'm not even a volunteer! Just a guy in a hat!).

Frankly, I'm exceedingly impressed at the volunteers and how hard they're trying in spite of the rules. Both of the events I went to were exceedingly well run (despite some misunderstandings), despite all of the inherent difficulties and high tension at the events.

All in all, I think it's been significantly better this year than it would have been if this game was played in my first year of FRC, 2011. Looking forward to seeing what next year's game brings.

[BlondOfBlood]

I do like the game this year a lot. It requires you to pay more attention to notice some of the scoring stuff, and it is great that it forces teams together. It's also nice becuase (presuming that every robot can move) every robot should be able have a role as defense.

The main problem with the fields is that they are inconsistent, and with the live time scoring it is difficult to change what may have been incorrectly selected. That said, fouls are a part of every game, and while when your team loses from them its not fun, they aren't new and some regulations if this sort is necessary.

[scooty199]

So my views on this game swing a lot.

At the time of unveiling, I was wary on this game. I thought more on it for about 2 days and then thought "This is actually cool and could be very fun".

I liked it even more and thought, this could be one of the deepest game strategy wise for FIRST. I really liked it and thought it could be played great. The assists aspect and the idea of teamwork looked really cool. I thought of things like different offensive styles and defensive styles, like a real sport. Loved the attempt FIRST made.

Come week 1, I saw the constant ramming and carnage and inconsistent reffing that occurred and the ridiculous amount of fouls. I ended up disliking that it marred the game so much.

Each week I grew more discouraged with gameplay. A lot of matches just weren't good at all, they were a pain to watch. A lot of the robots just also weren't that effective at playing the game, except for collisions. And the inconsistent officiating, which I believe is a result of both the game design and in my opinion understaffed events lessened the experience.

When the game is played like it's supposed to - It's a great game, looks awesome and it's exciting. That's not the norm however. The game is dreadful to watch otherwise. Some of the matches at the DC regional were just not fun to watch.

I believe someone mentioned this before, but the GDC attempted to do in a small amount of time what many sports have had for years. In months the GDC has to create a game and complex set of rules that are able to be justly and correctly enforced. It's definitely a nuanced thing, because sport rules are complex and backed by years of study and observation. FIRST GDC doesn't have that. I do love the attempt made by them and I think they can make the adjustments for Championships.

[221Sarahborg]

Originally Posted by Kingland093

I'm not a big fan of this game for a few reasons.
My team was in a very weak regional and in almost every single qualifying match, we were stuck with really bad robots. As a result, we went 1-9 and were ranked 62nd out of 63. It was really frustrating because every round, someone's shooter broke, or the refs didn't notice that we were calling a dead ball for 30 seconds or one of our partners got a foul. Our robot was running great and was pretty decent.
Basically what I'm saying is that since so much emphasis is placed on your alliance, a decent robot in a field of bad ones won't do well and won't get the attention of any scouts of the good teams

My team went to a poor regional as well where there were a lot of rookies and newer teams in the area so bad alliances was common, and the first seed was the powerhouse seed and of course won. By the time they got to us at 6th seed there wasn't the best selection of teams there (yet I still blame the co-captain for not picking 1939 ((and again with our driver at the next regional))). Our only reasons for losing matches was because the other teams didn't listen to us and there was a lack of communication and strategy, or they were a very new team that wasn't working too well. We had problems with the deadball card, half because the team with the ball stuck in their robot refused to hold up their card and weren't able to find it to hold up, when we should have probably put ours own up and slammed the glass as hard as we could.

I agree that the good robots on alliances of not as good ones can really harm your ranks, especially when they don't seem to listen to the plans to work better. The matches we lost were because of miscommunication and not as good teams, not because of breaking down. If a team has good scouting like they should, they won't focus all that much on the results of an alliance as much as they need to on the robot's individual performance, if it's shooting well, if it can catch, how quick its' intake and outtake is, how good it's assists are and how often, not so much on how they're working with say the teams that are having low performance.

Also the elims are really interesting, but in my personal experiences it would be better to watch the same power house teams go up in the finals over and over and over and over every single regional, and they're extremely brutal. I watched a certain team completely and repeatedly ram into another robot to hit off another's pickup mechanism as seen in a match screenshot here from when they were evaluating the damage for the score.

[mrnoble]

Oscar, I agree with many of your points. GDC is making a game more like a traditional sport: simple and deep. A lot of the problems relate to that attempt being within the one year turnover time period instead of fifty years of development and nuance.

In light of that, it might help to view many of the qual matches as developmental league- level play. Coaching peewee soccer for a number of years, I saw a lot of weird things that were perfectly fine for the age group. No offense intended to any team, but FRC is a mix of pros, up-and-comers and perpetual rookies (in the sport sense and in the amount of student and knowledge turnover). Boring (to watch) play comes with the territory; some of us are in peewee league, and are experiencing the game for the first time when we play match #8 on Friday.

It might also help to remember that qual play has always been spotty, every year.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by scooty199

A lot of matches just weren't good at all, they were a pain to watch. A lot of the robots just also weren't that effective at playing the game, except for collisions.

Has there ever been a year where that's not the case? In my experience, the bottom half or so of any given Regional in any given year can't accomplish any game objectives except (probably) driving around.

[Nyxyxylyth]

The rules are too subjective - unless DC bots are really that much meaner than St. Joseph bots.

St. Joseph 19 technical fouls
Livonia 28 technical fouls
New York 41 technical fouls
Waterford 53 technical fouls
DC 58 technical fouls

[Woolly]

At this point I would have to say Aerial Assist is a pretty bad game at the regional level for the reasons that have already been stated in this thread.

However, I think it might get better at State Championships and Worlds. The most exciting matches of Aerial Assist I've seen are ones where the ref crew stands back only calls blatant rules violations. I understand this can't happen often at the regional and district levels because many bots can't handle that style of game play without falling apart. In divisional eliminations and above, hopefully the more passive style of refereeing will become more common.

Also, the FMS still has some issues, like once in a great while the whole field will lose connection. That could definitely put a damper on Einstein if it were to continue.

[scooty199]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

Has there ever been a year where that's not the case? In my experience, the bottom half or so of any given Regional in any given year can't accomplish any game objectives except (probably) driving around.

That's a fair point. It seems even worse than particular this year. This is also a game that at the regional and district level, relies heavily on the floor in terms of robot ability. The floor sadly is a bit low in some places.

And no DC bots aren't that much meaner, it's what do you do when your robot is limited in capabilities? Play *defense*.

There also should have been more tech fouls than were called at the DC regional, but I believe that the volunteers there did a great job. I still have an issue with the pedestal and the inconsistency behind it. Cycles and runs have been affected severely because of it.

I do trust that by championships we will see a much better game overall. There have been a lot of improvements from the slugfest that was week 1.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Nyxyxylyth

The rules are too subjective - unless DC bots are really that much meaner than St. Joseph bots.

Originally Posted by Woolly

The most exciting matches of Aerial Assist I've seen are ones where the ref crew stands back only calls blatant rules violations.
... hopefully the more passive style of refereeing will become more common.

St. Joseph bots looked pretty mean to me, and I was watching from a very close vantage point while wearing stripes.* I saw a lot of very hard hits, and called very few technical fouls.

The results (see two posts above) speak for themselves -- good hard defense was not inhibited, and solidly built robots were rewarded by this style of officiating.

---------
*This was my first time refereeing. As a good volunteer should, I was following the direction set by our Head Ref.

[sdcantrell56]

Originally Posted by Woolly

However, I think it might get better at State Championships and Worlds. The most exciting matches of Aerial Assist I've seen are ones where the ref crew stands back only calls blatant rules violations. I understand this can't happen often at the regional and district levels because many bots can't handle that style of game play without falling apart. In divisional eliminations and above, hopefully the more passive style of refereeing will become more common.

This has to be one of the most frustrating aspects this year. The stronger competitions with better teams do not have the same picky over zealous technical foul calls whereas the weaker regionals are calling fouls non stop. Its unfortunate when teams don't build a machine that can handle rough contact but that is not a reason to call penalties at a higher rate, yet that is what is occurring this year with the incredibly subjective rules.

Additionally it is truly disheartening that teams pay so much money to compete and then FIRST won't even spend the money on proper electronics to ensure matches run without communication issues or pedestal delays. Its not that hard to light up a trashcan immediately