Go to Post A good engineer will never stop learning. From his peers, technicians, and competitors. The field is just to vast for any one person to know it all. - Mr. Mike [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 7 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 18:57
nuggetsyl's Avatar
nuggetsyl nuggetsyl is offline
Registered User
FRC #0025
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: north brunswick
Posts: 869
nuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond repute
Serpentine Draft

So I am in a catch 22 I like and dislike the serpentine draft. This year IMO way to many teams have been killed by the serpentine draft. You just can't over come a broken robot.

I heard a suggestion (2590 drive coach) and I really liked it. It would add a new twist to alliance selections. Allow the 1 seed pick where they want to draft from. Then the 2 seed picks where they want to draft from and so on. It means seeding number 1 or 2 is not a as a severe penalty as it currently is allowing them to build an alliance of working robots.
__________________
00,12Championship winner
03,06,08 Championship finalist
02A,03C,06N,08C,11N,12G Division winner
00,03,06,07,08,10,12 NJ / MAR winner
11 VCU winner
06,10 Las Vegas winner
12 MAR Mt Olive
red is for team 348
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:07
Yipyapper's Avatar
Yipyapper Yipyapper is offline
St. Louis Or Bust
AKA: Aaron Gordon
FRC #0781 (Kinetic Knights)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Kincardine
Posts: 171
Yipyapper has a reputation beyond reputeYipyapper has a reputation beyond reputeYipyapper has a reputation beyond reputeYipyapper has a reputation beyond reputeYipyapper has a reputation beyond reputeYipyapper has a reputation beyond reputeYipyapper has a reputation beyond reputeYipyapper has a reputation beyond reputeYipyapper has a reputation beyond reputeYipyapper has a reputation beyond reputeYipyapper has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Serpentine Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuggetsyl View Post
So I am in a catch 22 I like and dislike the serpentine draft. This year IMO way to many teams have been killed by the serpentine draft. You just can't over come a broken robot.

I heard a suggestion (2590 drive coach) and I really liked it. It would add a new twist to alliance selections. Allow the 1 seed pick where they want to draft from. Then the 2 seed picks where they want to draft from and so on. It means seeding number 1 or 2 is not a as a severe penalty as it currently is allowing them to build an alliance of working robots.
I was initially skeptical and thought this was a crazy idea.

After reading this a few times, I like it. It'd give the top seed a really interesting choice, although the only qualm that I can see with it is that it might complicate things a bit for the spectators. Not severely so, but it'd be there anyway.

Still, I do like this idea if it came to pass somehow.
__________________

Programmer/Driver for Team 781 -- The Kinetic Knights 2010-2014. 2011 World Finalists!
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:08
Botwoon's Avatar
Botwoon Botwoon is offline
A.K.A. Matthew Ruane
FRC #0207 (Metalcrafters)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Southern California
Posts: 152
Botwoon will become famous soon enough
Re: Serpentine Draft

Are you suggesting that both rounds of picking be consolidated into a single round? If so, I feel like that would lead to an overwhelming concentration of power in the top 1-3 alliances at most regionals.
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:09
Jacob Bendicksen's Avatar
Jacob Bendicksen Jacob Bendicksen is offline
Figuring out what's next
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 762
Jacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Serpentine Draft

To clarify, are you saying that because high-ranked alliances have to wait until the very end to choose a third robot, they end up losing because sometimes their pick isn't functional?

I agree that it can be difficult (if not impossible) to win this year with a broken alliance member. However, it's a very game-specific problem: while last year it certainly wasn't fun to have a broken 3rd robot, it wasn't necessarily something that could sink an alliance with two solid robots.

That being said, it's week 6. We only have one week of regionals left before higher-level competition (district and world championships), and at those levels functionality is more or less guaranteed for all robots there. While I'm not stupid enough to suggest that no robot ever breaks in St. Louis, there are enough teams there at a high enough level so that this just won't be a problem.

I hear what you're saying, but at this point in the season I don't think it's possible to make a real difference. It's an interesting concept, though.
__________________
jacobbendicksen.com | @jacobbendicksen

Yale University Class of 2020

Team 1540 | 2012-2016
7 Chairman's Awards, 6 other awards, 2015 Dean's List Finalist, 1 event win, 2 finalist finishes. Thanks for an amazing ride.
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:10
nuggetsyl's Avatar
nuggetsyl nuggetsyl is offline
Registered User
FRC #0025
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: north brunswick
Posts: 869
nuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Serpentine Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Botwoon View Post
Are you suggesting that both rounds of picking be consolidated into a single round? If so, I feel like that would lead to an overwhelming concentration of power in the top 1-3 alliances at most regionals.
No It means the 1 seed would get to to decide they want to be drafting from the 4th spot or 5th spot or 2nd.
__________________
00,12Championship winner
03,06,08 Championship finalist
02A,03C,06N,08C,11N,12G Division winner
00,03,06,07,08,10,12 NJ / MAR winner
11 VCU winner
06,10 Las Vegas winner
12 MAR Mt Olive
red is for team 348
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:11
c.shu's Avatar
c.shu c.shu is offline
Alumni/Mechanical/CAD
AKA: Cole Shumaker
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: MI
Posts: 121
c.shu is a splendid one to beholdc.shu is a splendid one to beholdc.shu is a splendid one to beholdc.shu is a splendid one to beholdc.shu is a splendid one to beholdc.shu is a splendid one to beholdc.shu is a splendid one to behold
Re: Serpentine Draft

I think they are saying let #1 choose when they pick. So they could choose to be the "5th" alliance captain per say.
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:12
nuggetsyl's Avatar
nuggetsyl nuggetsyl is offline
Registered User
FRC #0025
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: north brunswick
Posts: 869
nuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond reputenuggetsyl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Serpentine Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by c.shu View Post
I think they are saying let #1 choose when they pick. So they could choose to be the "5th" alliance captain per say.
Correct
__________________
00,12Championship winner
03,06,08 Championship finalist
02A,03C,06N,08C,11N,12G Division winner
00,03,06,07,08,10,12 NJ / MAR winner
11 VCU winner
06,10 Las Vegas winner
12 MAR Mt Olive
red is for team 348
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:20
Laaba 80 Laaba 80 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Joey
FRC #1714 (MORE Robotics)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 495
Laaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Serpentine Draft

Wow. I really like this idea. While the top 8 are being called onto the field they could announce which position they would like to draft from. The only issue I see is what happens to the 9 seed if they move up to a picking position? Would everyone more up if 1 picks 2, or would the 9 seed jump into 2's spot?

I am pretty happy with the championship draft format: the serpentine draft with an extra round. I think it keeps the alliances competitive while still giving the top alliances an advantage. It may not be doable at the regional/district level though, choosing your draft position would.
__________________
Driving Record - 75-43-8
Coaching Record - 92-65
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:26
SenorZ's Avatar
SenorZ SenorZ is offline
Physics Teacher
AKA: Tom Zook
FRC #4276 (Surf City Vikings)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Huntington Beach, California
Posts: 906
SenorZ has a reputation beyond reputeSenorZ has a reputation beyond reputeSenorZ has a reputation beyond reputeSenorZ has a reputation beyond reputeSenorZ has a reputation beyond reputeSenorZ has a reputation beyond reputeSenorZ has a reputation beyond reputeSenorZ has a reputation beyond reputeSenorZ has a reputation beyond reputeSenorZ has a reputation beyond reputeSenorZ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Serpentine Draft

Maybe I'm missing the point, but why would the #1 seed team want to allow three or four of the top seeded robots get swooped up before they get a pick?

Pro sports teams trade draft positions for players. And unless there are some sort of backroom deals going on I don't see why a top seed would want to chose from a smaller pool of alliance partners.
__________________
2013-present: FRC Team 4276, Surf City Vikings
2011-2012: FRC Team 3677, The Don Bots
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:29
Siri's Avatar
Siri Siri is offline
Dare greatly
AKA: 1640 coach 2010-2014
no team (Refs & RIs)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: PA
Posts: 1,602
Siri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via ICQ to Siri
Re: Serpentine Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorZ View Post
Maybe I'm missing the point, but why would the #1 seed team want to allow three or four of the top seeded robots get swooped up before they get a pick?

Pro sports teams trade draft positions for players. And unless there are some sort of backroom deals going on I don't see why a top seed would want to chose from a smaller pool of alliance partners.
You get your 3rd earlier. I'd be a fan of a pick-your-poison draft order.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:30
connor.worley's Avatar
connor.worley connor.worley is offline
Registered User
FRC #0973 (Greybots)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Berkeley/San Diego
Posts: 601
connor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Serpentine Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorZ View Post
Maybe I'm missing the point, but why would the #1 seed team want to allow three or four of the top seeded robots get swooped up before they get a pick?

Pro sports teams trade draft positions for players. And unless there are some sort of backroom deals going on I don't see why a top seed would want to chose from a smaller pool of alliance partners.
Maybe the 5th top seeded robot is just as good as the 1st, but the 20th is significantly better than the 24th.
__________________
Team 973 (2016-???)
Team 5499 (2015-2016)
Team 254 (2014-2015)

Team 1538 (2011-2014)
2014 Driver (25W 17L 1T)
日本語でOK
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:37
Dan_Karol Dan_Karol is offline
Mentor and Coach
AKA: Daniel Karol
FRC #0131 (CHAOS)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Southborough MA
Posts: 63
Dan_Karol has a spectacular aura aboutDan_Karol has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via AIM to Dan_Karol
Re: Serpentine Draft

I independently had this thought as well. I think it would give #1 seeds a bit more of an option and incentive for ranking first. It would remove the dread that comes from jumping from 6th to 2nd due to assist points.

The issue I see with it is how to deal with top 8 compression.

In a hypothetical situation:

Team A - 6th seed - 1st picking
Team B - 7th seed - 2nd picking
Team C - 8th seed - 3rd picking
Team D - 3rd seed - 4th picking
Team E - 1st seed - 5th picking
Team F - 2nd seed - 6th picking
Team G - 5th seed - 7th picking
Team H - 4th seed - 8th picking
------------------------------------------
Team I - 9th seed
Team J - 10th seed
Team k - 11th seed


When the Team A picks Team B where does Team I go into the draft order?

Options that I have so far:
1) Team I is always inserted at the bottom
2) Team I is inserted so all higher ranking team's original wishes are satisfied. This method can hose high ranking seeds because the number of picks become unreliable.
3) After every pick the #1 seed is asked if they want to pick now, if they don't then the #2 seed is asked and so on. This is probably the best way to give the advantage to the #1 seed but will take the longest. This makes it so the #1 seed may still never be picked by another team.
4) Completely different Idea: If the #1 seed picks outside of the top 8 then they go to the top of the list for the 2nd round draft. They will be pushed down if the #2 seed does likewise.


None of these methods are great, just something to think about. Also, it would make describing the process a nightmare.
__________________
2004 - 2012: Team 1100
2013 - ????: Team 131
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:40
cmrnpizzo14's Avatar
cmrnpizzo14 cmrnpizzo14 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cam Pizzo
FRC #3173 (IgKNIGHTers)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 522
cmrnpizzo14 has a reputation beyond reputecmrnpizzo14 has a reputation beyond reputecmrnpizzo14 has a reputation beyond reputecmrnpizzo14 has a reputation beyond reputecmrnpizzo14 has a reputation beyond reputecmrnpizzo14 has a reputation beyond reputecmrnpizzo14 has a reputation beyond reputecmrnpizzo14 has a reputation beyond reputecmrnpizzo14 has a reputation beyond reputecmrnpizzo14 has a reputation beyond reputecmrnpizzo14 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Serpentine Draft

Has anyone actually done some sort of analysis this year on the number of regionals won by #1 seeds, #2 seeds, #3 seeds etc. and compared it to previous years? I am not sure that I buy that this year alone there are a standout number of upsets by low seeds.
__________________
FIRST Team 3173 The IgKNIGHTers

"Where should we put the battery?"
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:49
OWilliamson's Avatar
OWilliamson OWilliamson is offline
Registered User
FRC #2594 (NASKCO)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Idaho
Posts: 115
OWilliamson is a glorious beacon of lightOWilliamson is a glorious beacon of lightOWilliamson is a glorious beacon of lightOWilliamson is a glorious beacon of lightOWilliamson is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Serpentine Draft

I'm not really sure how I feel about this, but it is definitely an interesting idea.
One situation I was wondering though is what if the alliance that picks first ends up picking the number one seed? Now the number one seed lost all of their power in picking. I'm not sure that this is a risk that many teams would be willing to take.
__________________


2015: Utah Regional - Quarter-Finalists (3374 & 4158)
2014: Utah Regional - Semi-Finalists (1619 & 399)
2013: Utah Regional - Quarter-Finalists (1332 & 3562)
2012: Utah Regional
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2014, 19:58
Grim Tuesday's Avatar
Grim Tuesday Grim Tuesday is offline
Registered User
AKA: Simon Bohn
FRC #0639 (Code Red)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Baltimore MD (JHU)
Posts: 1,600
Grim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Serpentine Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by OWilliamson View Post
I'm not really sure how I feel about this, but it is definitely an interesting idea.
One situation I was wondering though is what if the alliance that picks first ends up picking the number one seed? Now the number one seed lost all of their power in picking. I'm not sure that this is a risk that many teams would be willing to take.
Couldn't the number one seed just decline in this case?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 15:22.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi