Silicon Valley Regional 2014

[Chinmay]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

Every single person on the red alliance asked for 1323 to stay in.

I dont even know what to think about the decision, its absurd... im curious to know if theres a precedent for a team messing up like this and getting penalized so severely...

Thank you for trying to keep them in the game. I respect all of the teams on red a lot, and really appreciate your attempts at trying to help give madtown a break.

Edit: this is apparently what they look like http://imgur.com/iHFx9gU so not the easiest thing to mess up, but im sure it is hard to keep track of them when robots are having problems and students are stressed.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

1323 asked for timeout. Accidentally turned in backup card. Head said 1323 must sub out.

This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time. I'm flabbergasted.

[z_beeblebrox]

I've heard about a lot of controversial referee decisions, but this is the only one I can remember that I find completely unreasonable and unjustifiable.

[wilsonmw04]

something is missing here. There has to be.

[Headphones]

This is really the worst way I've heard of to be eliminated. There is almost certainly more to the story, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.

Props to 254 for trying to bring Madtown's banner up with them to the awards line; that was a classy move.

[Cory]

This was a decision made (Or at least affirmed) by Frank at HQ.

[bduddy]

I was on the field, and this is what I heard. After being given the backup robot coupon, Mark asked which team they wanted to replace, and he firmly believed that he was told that 1323 wanted to replace themselves. He immediately called for the backup team. When 1323 presented themselves and the misunderstanding (or whatever you want to call it) was discovered, he was originally going to allow them to compete, with the loss of their timeout, but after discussion with several people, it was decided that 1323 must be replaced by a backup robot.

As for the red alliance wanting 1323 to stay (which I also saw), I firmly believe that the other team, in any competition, should never be put in a position where they decide if a foul applies or not. Maybe you think it would have helped in this situation, but it only leads to bad thongs down the line. Anyway, this is only my opinion and I have no idea why they were not listened to.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Cory

This was a decision made (Or at least affirmed) by Frank at HQ.

How do you know this? maybe Confirmed?

[David Brinza]

Originally Posted by bduddy

I was on the field, and this is what I heard. After being given the backup robot coupon, Mark asked which team they wanted to replace, and he firmly believed that he was told that 1323 wanted to replace themselves. He immediately called for the backup team. When 1323 presented themselves and the misunderstanding (or whatever you want to call it) was discovered, he was originally going to allow them to compete, with the loss of their timeout, but after discussion with several people, it was decided that 1323 must be replaced by a backup robot.

As for the red alliance wanting 1323 to stay (which I also saw), I firmly believe that the other team, in any competition, should never be but in a position where they decide if a foul applies or not. Maybe you think it would have helped in this situation, but it only leads to bad thongs down the line. Anyway, this is only my opinion and I have no idea why they were not listened to.

Thanks for the explanation.

Good FRC teams don't like to win via factors other than playing better than their opponents. Winning due to technical fouls, red cards, disabled robots, etc. detract from the quality of the victory.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Cory

This was a decision made (Or at least affirmed) by Frank at HQ.

[mhaeberli]

Gracious Professionalism - GP - speaking for myself, in my view, I am certain this was very tough for the team, and for (hypothetically) the individual who chose and handed the wrong coupon to the ref. That said, I'm against ad hominem (that is, personal / individual) attacks on the ref or any volunteer.

[billbo911]

I haven't seen anyone post the rules related to this situation. So, without further comment, let's start there:

T20
If during a TIMEOUT an ALLIANCE CAPTAIN determines that they need to call up a BACKUP TEAM, they must submit their BACKUP TEAM coupon to the Head Referee while there are still at least two (2) minutes remaining on the ARENA Timer. After that point, they will not be allowed to utilize the BACKUP TEAM.

Alternatively, an ALLIANCE CAPTAIN may choose to call up a BACKUP TEAM without using their TIMEOUT by informing the Head Referee directly within two (2) minutes of the Head Referee issuing the ARENA reset signal preceding their MATCH.

In the case where the ALLIANCE CAPTAIN’S ROBOT is replaced by a BACKUP TEAM, the ALLIANCE CAPTAIN is allowed in the ALLIANCE STATION as a thirteenth ALLIANCE member so they can serve in an advisory role to their ALLIANCE.

The BOLD and BOLD UNDERLINE are mine.

Now for my comments based entirely on my opinion. I watched the webcast and was not in attendance. I know Mark and must admit, I trust his judgement whether I agree with it or not.

Based on the quoted rule, I believe Mark had no choice, he had to make the call that he did. No where in the rule does it say that the Captain needs to verbally request a substitute. It is based entirely on the coupon presented. As to which team needs to be replaced, that must be a verbal communication. So, obviously we are missing some information as to why Madtown was substituted out. I can only assume it was due to a verbal communication error. Again, that is my assumption based on comments in this thread.

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

How do you know this? maybe Confirmed?

It was announced before the match.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Andrew Lawrence

It was announced before the match.

I don't remember any public annoucements being made, other than one that 1323 had been replaced.

I did hear on the sidelines that calls had been made to FIRST HQ.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by billbo911

Based on the quoted rule, I believe Mark had no choice, he had to make the call that he did. No where in the rule does it say that the Captain needs to verbally request a substitute. It is based entirely on the coupon presented. As to which team needs to be replaced, that must be a verbal communication. So, obviously we are missing some information as to why Madtown was substituted out. I can only assume it was due to a verbal communication error. Again, that is my assumption based on comments in this thread.

I believe the head ref in this case had a choice to make, even though the rules as stated say that if a team hands in a backup coupon, the backup robot will be brought in.

The Head Referee has the ultimate authority in the ARENA during the event, but may receive input from additional sources, e.g. Game Designers, FIRST personnel, and technical staff. The Head Referee rulings are final. The Head Referee will not review recorded replays under any circumstances.

According to this verbiage, the head ref has the power to make whatever call he sees fit after receiving input and reviewing the rules. Yes, the rules state that if a team turns in a backup coupon, you will receive a backup team - but if a kid mistakenly hands the ref the wrong coupon, realizes the mistake and is willing to forfeit the correct coupon (and time out) for the situation, does it hurt to vary from the rules in this instance? If the other alliance is in favor of this variation from the rules, does it hurt anyone?

I guess if anything, there needs to be a clause added to the manual that states something along the lines of 'after receipt of an alliances back-up coupon, and a verbal confirmation that this is the coupon they desire to use, a backup team will be brought in for this alliance.'