Silicon Valley Regional 2014

[MrTechCenter]

I'm a bit surprised that Frank from HQ made the call that he did, that's VERY surprising unless he wasn't told the entire situation or misunderstood, I don't see why he would say that they had to stay out given the circumstances.

[AlecS]

Thank you to the teams and FIRST members showing their support for our team during an incredibly difficult experience for our team and alliance. Their support made what was the worst experience in FIRST I have ever had slightly more bearable. I think it is more than fair to say that nobody on Team 1323 is currently in any state of mind to write a cohesive, detailed response about what happened during semifinals. However, we will share the facts from our story when we have had more time to think about what happened today. Please refrain from jumping to conclusions about what occurred based on rumors or hearsay.

All I will say right now is that telling our students that their season is over because of a loss is difficult. Telling our students that their season is over because of a situation like this is a decision I cannot begin to understand.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by MrTechCenter

I'm a bit surprised that Frank from HQ made the call that he did, that's VERY surprising unless he wasn't told the entire situation or misunderstood, I don't see why he would say that they had to stay out given the circumstances.

Why is it hard to understand? In an unprecedented move he already retroactively DQ'ed an alliance in two matches for questionable reasons 4 weeks ago.

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by Cory

Why is it hard to understand? In an unprecedented move he already retroactively DQ'ed an alliance in two matches for questionable reasons 4 weeks ago.

Are you referring to the whole Pink/Bacon thing?

[Jared Russell]

I wish the MC had done a better job of explaining exactly what had happened to the arena, because immediately after 1323 left the field there was a lot of rampant speculation and accusations thrown in the referee's direction. People always look for a single person or entity to blame for an unfortunate situation, but in this case it is not clear who made the final call, and with what information the call was made. It was a bad situation all around.

I am thoroughly impressed with how 1323 has handled all of this this. They are truly a class act and handled their misfortune far more graciously than I would have. Their season ended with them being forced to remove their robot from the field in the middle of a tight semifinal series, with what turned out to be at least two Wild Card spots awaiting their alliance in the Finals. While they would have had to defeat the #1 seeded alliance in back to back matches to advance to the finals, the 1323/846/2135 alliance was more than capable of such a feat. As soon as alliance selections had finished, I knew that the semifinals were going to be tough. They posted big scores in the quarterfinals, and we narrowly escaped with a victory in SF1-1 thanks in no small part to 1323's versatile offensive play and defense.

As far as what happened: please do not jump to conclusions on this. I was a firsthand observer for much of this incident and am myself confused at who made which decisions.

I was standing right behind 1323's student when they handed their coupon to the head referee. I was actually with 971's student alliance captain adjacent to the question box at the time, ready to turn in the #1 seed's timeout if called upon (254 was busy fixing a gearbox issue and we knew we might need a few minutes).

After SF2-1 (the match preceding our next match), I saw the 1323 student approach the ref with a coupon/coupon(s) in their hand (didn't notice which) along with the captain's armband. The student spoke to the head ref and gave him a coupon, and after a brief conversation that I could not overhear, he turned around and started to head back to the pit. He did not take 3 steps before I stopped and asked him, "Did you guys just call your timeout?", to which he replied, "Yes". I do not know what exactly the exchange with the ref entailed, but it was absolutely clear that the student thought he had called a timeout. At the time I actually thought to myself, "Sweet, we didn't have to use our own timeout." 1323 called the timeout to fix a drive encoder cable that is only used during autonomous mode - certainly not a fatal failure by any stretch of the imagination.

Five-ish minutes later, and the #1 and #4 seeded alliances are getting back into the queuing line to take to the field for SF1-2. I do not know if there was any interaction between the head ref and a representative from 1323 in this intervening period. Once in line, the head ref comes to 1323 and asks which robot is being replaced. I was standing right next to RC, who is surprised and tries to clarify that he wanted a timeout, not a backup robot. The head ref reluctantly sounds like he will let 1323 continue to play at this point in time.

I return to my seat assuming the match will soon begin, but there is now a 15+ minute field delay. I assumed it was FMS issues (the field had a number of problems over the weekend, but that's a topic for another thread) until I heard it announced that 670 was preparing to enter the match. I was as confused as everyone else. When I saw that 1323 was being told to leave the field, I attempted to get to the front of the crowd to talk to the head referee. I said that I was standing right behind the student and that the student thought he had turned in the timeout coupon, and that it was an honest mistake. The ref asserted that the student confirmed it was for a backup robot and then asked me, "Student or mentor?" When I said "Mentor", he said "I cannot talk to you". (It is not clear to me that this is a correct interpretation of T13, but I then knew that my words weren't going to change this situation and I walked away).

Despite what is posted on the FIRST website regarding SF1-2, 1323 left and was replaced by 670. They did an admirable job, but it wasn't enough. It is hard to overcome losing your alliance captain.

A student made a simple mistake, likely due to ambiguous communication between him and the head ref in a panicked moment. This should have been a harmless mistake with an easy remedy. The entire red alliance had zero doubt that 1323 intended to call the timeout all along. Instead, you have team members in tears in their pits. Not because they lost, but because they didn't even get the chance that they earned through their #4 alliance captain position.

What really, really, really grinds my gears is the total hypocrisy of the situation. We have video of missed assists in many of our matches. Non-calls and phantom calls that make absolutely no sense when watching the replay. Bizarre field faults involving hot goals, pedestals, and even transitioning the whole field into teleop 1.5 seconds after the start of autonomous (!). In these situations, we could do nothing but pound sand or get a replay (in the case of the latter issue). Why the double standard when a high school student makes an honest mistake?

[magnets]

Originally Posted by Jared Russell

What really, really, really grinds my gears is the total hypocrisy of the situation. We have video of missed assists in many of our matches. Non-calls and phantom calls that make absolutely no sense when watching the replay. Bizarre field faults involving hot goals, pedestals, and even transitioning the whole field into teleop 1.5 seconds after the start of autonomous (!). In these situations, we could do nothing but pound sand or get a replay (in the case of the latter issue). Why the double standard when a high school student makes an honest mistake?

Exactly. The under pressure, stressed out high school students (and the robots they build) should never be held to a higher standard than FIRST's field, which is developed by paid professionals. It's just backward. I can't see any positive reason to make the decision that was made, and I know if I made that honest little mistake when I was in high school, and FIRST HQ responded the way they did, I would have left the program. There is no way that the kid, or any person on his team is feeling at all inspired. How do you explain this to your sponsor? I know that sponsors shouldn't care about a teams performance, but the reality is that some do. What mentor wants to be part of a program where you spend tens of thousands of dollars to compete in a poorly thought out game (the whole dead ball thing), with a field that doesn't work, and a set of unenforceable rules, in which you've just been disqualified because one high school kid made a little mistake?

This is really, really bad.

[hionwind]

Obviously there is a dark cloud hanging over the Silicon Valley Regional and, until we hear Madtown's version of the story, we are all making conjectures as to what really happened. It is unfortunate that a great team like 1323 was not able to finsh their season by showing their true capabilities. RC and his team have been the epitome of gracious professionalism over the years and, in so many ways, have helped 1678 achieve our current level of success. Thank you RC for all that you do for FIRST and our kids. There is a reason why you are a WFA recipient and your team a past Chairman's winner.

Having said that, I would like to talk about the positive outcomes at this year's SVR. Aside from this one major controversy, this was a very exciting and competitive regional. The depth of talent was remarkable and, during eliminations, you could tell that there was no obvious outcome despite some powerful alliances being formed. I was especially impressed with the quality of some of the rookie and second year teams. 4990 looked like a veteran team both on the field and in the pit. To seed 12th in your first regional is a great accomplishment but you should also be proud of the professionalism that your students showed in all aspects of the competition.

Thank you so much to our partners 368 and 4171 for helping us keep things interesting in the finals. 368's swerve drive was a thing of beauty and your ability to shoot into the high goal on the fly was amazing. This is the second time that 4171 has joined our alliance (you guys helped us win Cal Games last year) and, once again, you did an excellent job by starting the all-important 30-point assist cycle.

Congratulations to teams 254, 971 and 1662 for taking home the winner's trophy; to team 604 for another Chairman's win (how many is that now?); to team 2035 for winning EI (and for having a "rockin" robot); and, finally, to Annette Lane for a well-deserved Woody Flowers award.

For 1678, this was the most competitive and exciting regional we have ever played. We had a blast, made a lot of new friends, and learned a ton about strategy and execution which will help us improve as we move on to champs. Despite breaking down in the finals, I would say that this is our most successful regional showing to date. We are planning to work hard over the next few weeks and look forward to seeing some of you in St. Louis.

[DigitalOutlaw53]

I am the Lead Mentor for Team 2135 which was a member of the alliance that was lead by 1323 and included 846 in the Finals at SVR. I am also the father of one of the mentors of 1323.

1323, like so many teams in FRC, have given so much back to the sport, their communities and of course their students. 1323 and the entire FRC community have helped our team on countless occasions without ever asking for anything in return. It is a privilege and an honor to walk with 1323 and our entire FRC family.

I make no comment on the facts of the matter as no one on 2135 were aware of what was happening until after the match. I do not have any additional information to offer on the events and this is not meant to denigrate any individual or group in any way. Things happened.

What I can comment on are two things:

1. 1323 took the matter as the gentlemen and leaders which they are. They calmly walked off the field with their heads held high even though this was a crushing way to cap off thousands of hours of hard work. While they did not agree with the decision, they nevertheless played by the rules and left the field. I am very proud of their maturity and I am worried I would have looked like a screaming two year old had I been in the same position.

2. I shouldn't be surprised by the reaction of the California FRC community to what happened but I was. Every team I saw in the building after the match came up to 1323 to congratulate them on an outstanding season and their entire history in FRC. Most didn't care about what happened, they just needed to show their support. I was totally overwhelmed by the whole thing. FRC and Silicon Valley/California are amazing and we will always be strong with such great people including the teams, the volunteers and the refs - everyone.

[roystur44]

With all the big sharks swimming in the tank it was a great time competing with some of the best teams in First.

As a second year team I am proud to mentor my kids and what they accomplished in the little time they had to build a robot, become a team, and learn how to compete with the robot.

Every time we met and did robotics we learned something new.

To all the people who make the SVR run a big THANK YOU.

[joelg236]

Originally Posted by Jared Russell

and even transitioning the whole field into teleop 1.5 seconds after the start of autonomous (!).?

Did this match get replayed? That's not something you can't notice...

[AlecS]

After some time to think about what happened, here is what I have to say about what happened in SF 1-2, and the rest of the regional.

As far as the facts of the situation are concerned, both Brian Bond and Jared are correct. During SF 1-1 our drive encoder wire snagged and was cut, which caused our robot to slam into the driver station wall during autonomous.

When the team got back to the pit and discovered the issue, we knew we needed to fix it for the next match. RC, quickly handed our student a card, and told him to go to the question box and call a timeout. This is where the mistake occurred on our part, in the heat of moment, RC accidentally gave the student the backup card instead of the timeout card. This was not realized at the time, and the student had no reason to believe the card he was handed was the wrong one.

The student went to the question box and verbally requested a timeout, and gave the head ref the card he was handed, which turned out to be the backup card. Although nobody else appears to have overheard this conversation, to question the integrity of the student, who claims to have clearly requested a timeout, is outrageous.

From there, our team went about repairing our robot for the next match. We informed our alliance partners we had called a timeout. At some point during the timeout, the head ref came to our pit and asked if we “were going to be in” for the next match. Without knowing any context to his question, we said yes, we are in. This is where a major miscommunication occurred. Without knowing or hearing any context to the question, nobody on 1323 had any idea anything involving backup robot was being considered. No mention of a backup was ever announced in the pits.

We finished fixing our robot and sent it out to the field, only to be told we would be forced to sit out. The events transcribed as Jared said, with our entire drive team being extremely confused and distraught about the situation. Our drive team explained that they were trying to call a timeout not a backup and that a mistake must have been made. The head ref appeared to understand the error, however after a discussion behind the scoring table with FIRST HQ, we were told we would be forced to sit out.


I will not publicly speculate on who made what decisions, or the officials intentions during communications with our team, nor will we likely ever know exactly what the officials thought was happening. However, the fact that there was a decision actively made to force our team to sit out, and ultimately end our season, while knowing what we had intended to do is a decision that I don't think I will ever understand. In a competition that is supposed to inspire students to pursue STEM, telling our students that even though they worked incredibly hard throughout the entire season, they don't get the chance they earned to compete because of a simple, honest, mistake seems to be just about the least inspiring thing I can think of. This decision, combined with other unfortunate interactions with event officials throughout the event left our students and mentors in a state of frustration that I have never felt before at a FIRST event.

Again we cannot thank our friends enough for their support. The behavior of these teams during this experience is something myself and the rest of 1323 will never forget.

Teams 846 and 2135, you guys were awesome alliance partners, and were completely innocent parties in this ordeal. Your condolences to our team after the matches were greatly appreciated.

Team 670, I am sorry you were placed into this situation. I know it must have been more confusing for you than it was for us as to what was going on. Thank you for being so polite about what happened. One of your mentors brought RC, our drive team and myself waters as we were in tears after the match. This was a true example of gp.

Teams 971, 254, 1662, 1678, 368, 4171, you guys were awesome opponents and your offer to protest as you did was incredibly inspiring. Your teams should never have been placed in a situation where you felt that another team was being wronged to point where you felt you had to protest. Thank you for everything you did.

Team 254, thank you for trying to show support with our banner.

At the end of day, what's done is done. Hopefully, FIRST will learn from this experience and other shocking rulings this season, and in the future, will not disregard it’s own mission statement when making unprecedented rulings during eliminations play.

I expect RC will post his own thought’s on what transpired, over the next few days.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by AlecS

The red alliance (971,254,1662) along with the 2nd seed alliance (1678,368,4171) attempted to protest this decision, and were told any attempt to protest the decision would result in their removal from the FIRST Championship.

What?

[dodar]

Originally Posted by AlecS

The red alliance (971,254,1662) along with the 2nd seed alliance (1678,368,4171) attempted to protest this decision, and were told any attempt to protest the decision would result in their removal from the FIRST Championship.

Is this for real?

[R.C.]

Sorry for the late post,

Its taken me a while to write this. Before I start, I can't thank Team 254 enough. You guys are awesome and thank you so much for letting my kids go down with you guys. It meant the world to them. Also thank you to the teams that came by (971/1678/2135/846/604 etc..) You guys were the only reason the event was bearable. Thank you all who have posted/texted me supporting us, it means a ton to us.

This is exactly what happened.

Semi Match 1 our robot in auton ran into the wall. We've seen this happen before, basically we knew our encoder came unplugged. We didn't' call a timeout immediately because it seemed like a simple fix. At SVR it took 1-3 minutes to get just off the field. The second we got back into the pits the wires had came out of the 4 pin encoder. We ripped the timout card in half and gave it to our student who ran over to call a timeout. Thinking double timeouts, use one. Nothing else on our robot was broken except one darn encoder connector.

The student asked for a timeout twice and a poof mentor even asked him what he was asking for. It was a timeout. This was all very rushed because we didn't' want them to not except our timeout. The head ref acknowledged it was a timeout and said you got 6 minutes.

4-5 minutes later the head ref came over to our pit to ask what robot is being subbed out. We were all very very confused as we wanted a timeout. We've had this same situation happen when we took long to get back into the que line. So we just replied, No we are fine, we are in or something to the extent we are not being subbed out. There were 9 kids and about 4-5 kids that heard this same thing.

Once we finished we hustled into the que line and people were asking us why we subbed out? We at this point were just confused as we would never sub out unless our robot tore in half (a bit extreme I know). The head ref came over and started telling us that were taking advantage of the system and we asked for a backup. We immediately started telling him what happened. The head ref would not believe we said we did not want to be subbed out and we were in. Seriously? Can't believe 9 students and 4 different adult? You can make a mistake... After a bit of talking the head ref was fine with what happened and we went onto the field. The head ref said we were taking both timeouts and you are okay to go onto the field.

Once on the field someone behind the scoring table had called Frank or FIRST. The information was relayed to Frank and we were asked to remove our robot from play, which we did. Frank at FIRST made the call, unsure if Frank got all the information. We feel as he was told a distorted view.

I have been apart of FIRST for 9-10 years. I have never ever gone back to the pits crying along with students.

Over this past weekend, we have been harassed by inspectors for having 10-12 batteries charging in the pits and for "apparently" cheating by putting our blocker on and off even tho it was weighed in initially and demonstrated. The head LRI told the person re inspecting our robot to take their sweet time and as long as possible. <- What gives?

The refs missed an absurd amount of calls and we had to "educate" them how the rules worked. The best calls missed were the ones in front of them. We didn't' even get a field fault when two balls were on the field, apparently ref's didn't see it!

All we and the other alliance wanted was to play the match. I'm not upset that we lost to 254/971. We've lost to them countless times, but the fact we got removed and we didn't' have a chance to send our kids to champs.

There was no logic with this call, I said it numerous times this past weekend when I was frustrated with crappy volunteers. This isn't a powertrip time for adults, its a time to let kids learn and play matches. A kid made an honest mistake, he verbally communicated what he and the team wanted. Just because a stupid piece was paper was incorrectly handed does that mean we have to be subbed out?

This is pretty hard to swallow, we wont' be back at this event ever again and I'm sick of these awful rules and standards set by FIRST. How do you hold a kid to something when you can't even hold the adults responsible?

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

What?

I was told this as well.. From a few different people.