What was there before AndyMark?

[geomapguy]

Interesting picture
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/25316

[fox46]

Ahh- the dark ages... I remember installing servos to drill gearboxes and boasting about having "two speed" transmissions! Back then you really had to be innovative in your designs to even make things work. Taking a motor spinning at 20kRPM and somehow getting it down to a speed and torque that could be used was often the pinnacle of your machine's design, especially if your team was short on mentors. My rookie year doing FIRST I remember our team U-bolted drill motors to our frame and used chains to drive our wheels- we had no idea what "side load" meant and paid the price throwing chains every match

Things are much easier now. With just a little money you can log onto VEX or AM, find what you need in the gear ratio of your choice and in a couple days you've got a mechanism running. Sometimes I really do think things are too easy these days. The sort of problem solving and creative thought that used to go into designing a gearbox for a mechanism is somewhat lost.

Any Canadians on here remember Canada First? (Canadian spinoff of FIRST before they crossed the border)

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by fox46

Any Canadians on here remember Canada First? (Canadian spinoff of FIRST before they crossed the border)

I remember hearing about it, often in a negative light. 188 spent a few years in that competition before becoming the first FRC team in Canada in 1998. (See here for details.)

On the bright side, test-driving Woburn's 1997 robot was a major factor in getting me to join the team.

[fox46]

I remember hearing about it, often in a negative light.

Yup, "negative" would be accurate- that thread pretty much covers all the bases. I don't believe they were affiliated with FIRST at all. Unfortunately for Canadian teams who couldn't afford to travel to the states, it was all there was back then and although it wasn't nearly as well-run or set up as FIRST, it did serve to inspire and motivate many youth in its day.

[JamesCH95]

At first, there was nothing.

And then Andy said: let there be decent COTS parts for FIRST!

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

At first, there was nothing.

And then Andy said: let there be decent COTS parts for FIRST!

And somehow we still got the 2007 KOP transmissions...

(They were from BB)

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Now back to the modern day, what I can't figure out, is you can essentially buy a very competitive robot, with the right combination of parts, but a very large percentage of teams still produce very poor robots, many of which are incapable of assisting their alliance or scoring any points at all. What gives?

Spend some time around a rookie team with no money or mentors, and it will cease to be a mystery. Honestly, I think a lot of people here would do well to expand their horizons in that way - at best, the "I can't understand how people can do badly at FIRST" culture is unproductive, and at worst it serves to drive people away from this community who stand to benefit from it most.

Moreover, you can't buy entire manipulators, you can't buy any of it pre-assembled, you can't buy the knowledge to make the whole system work; there's always going to be some amount of design and machining involved, no matter how COTS-oriented your design process is. Step back for a second and think about the amount of institutionalized knowledge that goes into putting a working robot on a FRC field; imagine stripping all that away, and starting from scratch. The reality for many FRC teams is that they have a collection of students who have never done any engineering, teachers who have never built robots, and no clear idea of what they're getting into. They often also have extremely limited budgets, and likely could not afford a completely COTS robot (have you looked at VexPro's prices?) even if they had the know-how to put one together. Does it seem so mysterious now?

[Peter Matteson]

Having been a mentor through some of the dark days before cots rules were loosened and kit bot created I can say those items have elevated play in ways I can't even begin to describe.

In 2003-2004 my first years as a mentor the question of whether or not we had partners that could move every match was a valid concern because lots of teams tried crazy things in their drives that just wouldn't work. Robots would throw chains from missaligned axles regularly it was a world of difference.

Once teams could "drive out of the box" and spend 6 weeks developing a mechanism the quality of robots go signifcantly better and you had far fewer concerns about heather your partner could move, and started figuring out how you could work together.

Also to respond to the questions about IFI getting into COTS, they made and distributed the original JVN/Copioli kitbot in 2005. To the best of my knowledge that started them selling COTS parts on the mechanical side.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

And somehow we still got the 2007 KOP transmissions...

(They were from BB)

We all make mistakes

[Tytus Gerrish]

Bosch Drill transmissions with servo gear changes.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Now back to the modern day, what I can't figure out, is you can essentially buy a very competitive robot, with the right combination of parts, but a very large percentage of teams still produce very poor robots, many of which are incapable of assisting their alliance or scoring any points at all. What gives?

buy

What gives?

That's what gives. Every team can't just buy a very competitive robot, only some can.

I am assuming you are being sarcastic here, but either way, it is kind of offensive.

[Alan Anderson]

My son joined the TechnoKats in 2003. From my point of view, there was never a time before AndyMark.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Monochron

That's what gives. Every team can't just buy a very competitive robot, only some can.

I am assuming you are being sarcastic here, but either way, it is kind of offensive.

This assertion that a "competitive" robot somehow costs thousands of dollars is, frankly, ridiculous.

You get a drivebase in the KoP which is covered by a cost you HAVE to pay, total cost, $0. This year alone that will give you at least 11 points in auton. Yet I consistently see teams not earning even that. Heck, strap a chair on top and it's a viable inbounder. Not the most glamorous role but certainly needed and a hot commodity. Total cost, $40 if you buy a REALLY nice chair.

Look at 558 for an example of simple, mostly COTS bot that doesn't cost a ton.

[ebmonon36]

We spend a lot of time designing and perfecting our omni-wheels.

We started using Knex wheels as the rollers:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/16984

Those were replaced with plastic rollers:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/17047

The two layers of carbon fiber (legalized in 2004) were eventually replaced with a single sheet of aluminum and plastic rollers replaced with rubber...and then we switched to AndyMark.

We used the Bosch drill transmissions in 2003 and 2004, Nothing But Dewalts (3 speeds!) from 2005 to 2007. I can remember rebuilding the Bosch transmissions every 2-3 matches at IRI in 2003. We had a horrible time with those.

Our frames were 80/20 for our first two years, a modified IFI kit frame in 2005, and in 2006 we designed our first sheet metal chassis.

Mike Trapp of Waterjet Cutting of Indiana began helping us in 2004 so we had the advantage of getting custom aluminum sprockets and gears cut for us.

[Mr. Van]

The primary reason that teams have difficulty "doing" FRC is that they design beyond their abilities. And they should.

When teams (and individuals) push the envelope, they are bound to fail, but hopefully they learn. It would be a great shame if many teams that are "struggling" stopped doing so and simply became "support" teams for those who can really "play the game".

FRC is a game of mentors. The best teams are guided by mentors who know how to balance on the knife edge of pushing the envelope and achieving success.

As for the "days before AM", I remember the challenges of just getting a drive system working in the days of Small Parts, extruded aluminum and a single 4' x 8' sheet of 1/2" plywood.

- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox