Addressing Chaos During Morning Entry at Champs

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

When is the appropriate time to post then?

The event is in a week. If he waited until Friday, or Monday, FIRSTs wouldn't really have any time to respond to any request or prods for information.

Likely, never. Because if you do it before the event you are just complaining about things you don't know. And if you do it after "they are just volunteers". So, best form seems to just not criticize at all and just continue to thank your lucky stars you can continue to pay thousands of dollars to recreate black friday stampedes with smart kids.


I think this thread is warranted. FIRST has been REALLY good about telling us when things are changing. The fact that they haven't told us this process has changed concerns me because it is an injury waiting to happen.

Cory, I really hope FIRST replies to your concerns soon.

[Aren Siekmeier]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

That's my point exactly! This thread is blaming FIRST for not doing anything (just look at the thread title...), specifically because nothing has been communicated yet. It's blame before the fact, not after the event.

Perhaps the title of the thread could have been better, but I think we can all cut Cory some slack... This is a big problem that he and many others have brought up with FIRST over the past few years. So far, just 1 week away from the event, no details of a solution have been communicated, so he's taking the initiative to make sure it happens. I think he's allowed to be a bit frustrated when it's taken all these years and it still doesn't seem close to happening... And he goes on to spend the vast majority of his post discussing the problem and possible solutions.

[Mark Sheridan]

I have not been to St. Louis since 2011. Can someone fill me on the back story of the change last year?

I don't recall much of a wait in 2011. Also I remember there was rain, looks like its been raining in St. Louis and may rain during load from the forecast. Were people sheltered in 2013? I remember running into the hallway next to the pits to get out of the rain but I am not sure when that happened in 2011.

[MrTechCenter]

Originally Posted by Mark Sheridan

I have not been to St. Louis since 2011. Can someone fill me on the back story of the change last year?

I don't recall much of a wait in 2011. Also I remember there was rain, looks like its been raining in St. Louis and may rain during load from the forecast. Were people sheltered in 2013? I remember running into the hallway next to the pits to get out of the rain but I am not sure when that happened in 2011.

2011 had way fewer teams than 2012 and 2013. Also, in 2011, there were two fields on the America's Center floor and two in the dome, whereas all four fields are now in the dome.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

That's my point exactly! This thread is blaming FIRST for not doing anything (just look at the thread title...), specifically because nothing has been communicated yet. It's blame before the fact, not after the event.

I'm not blaming anyone. I just want to see a solution. I've changed the thread title...can we just focus on the problem now (as my post clearly did)?

For those who were not there, in 2012 and 2013 instead of having two separate entrances there was one entrance in the plaza in the front of the dome. This was for all four fields and the pits. There was no signage indicating which doors would open, so people spread across all the doors to be sure they would get into an open door and then as soon as doors opened, everyone collapsed on the 2-3 (out of 20) doors that were open and caused a stampede.

There was zero crowd control, causing teams showing up 30 min before doors open to be able to shove in with the teams that had been waiting 2+ hours. There was no line or any kind of security. Just one yellow jacket event security person who quickly realized they had zero effective authority when there were 1000+ amped up teenagers in a massive blob with no kind of queue formed.

There was a guy from FIRST who clearly thought he was being entertaining and showed up with a megaphone moments before the doors opened, counted down "5-4-3-2-1" and then opened the doors, further inciting the stampede.

Once you squeezed through the door you had to either get up a flight of stairs and onto the Dome concource, or up a set of escalators, at which point everyone flat out sprinted to their division to try and get the best seats. This lead to more pushing/shoving/trampling and reports of fights.

To get to the pits you had to go all the way down the main hallway, which meant another mad sprint about 200 yards or so.

2011 was much better because you could line up outside the pit doors, inside the main hallway, eliminating the sprint (for the most part...there were still the pit fields). This left way fewer people trying to go through Entry A

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Likely, never. Because if you do it before the event you are just complaining about things you don't know. And if you do it after "they are just volunteers". So, best form seems to just not criticize at all and just continue to thank your lucky stars you can continue to pay thousands of dollars to recreate black friday stampedes with smart kids.


I think this thread is warranted. FIRST has been REALLY good about telling us when things are changing. The fact that they haven't told us this process has changed concerns me because it is an injury waiting to happen.

Cory, I really hope FIRST replies to your concerns soon.

Well, I guess I'll stop trying to change the general tone of negativity we've seen all season then. If you'll read my posts, you'll see that I have no issue with discussing the problem, posing solutions, or contacting first. Maybe i've become a little over-sensitized at this point, but for the past 3 months it seems like every time I come on CD there's another thread about how FIRST really screwed up, or how a Q&A is horrible, or how a team update screws up the game. It's been an overwhelming negative atmosphere all season, and not at all productive.

[Navid Shafa]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

and not at all productive.

FIRST addressed at least a handful of the issues that were discussed this season and came up with rather adequate responses in my opinion.

If conversation that leads to organizational correction/reform isn't productive, I don't know what is.

I am 100% with Cory. I am a small guy and I was thoroughly jostled around last year. There are more than just FRC students too. Young children, not to mention handicapped or physically disabled that I saw trying to enter at risk. It is extremely unsafe and there has to be a better less chaotic way to manage this process.

[JB987]

I had a detailed discussion (in person with Frank) after one of our kids was hurt in one of cluster $!!@@ at the entrance last year. We discussed some of the exact steps Cory so adroitly brings up again ( see thread from post Champs CD thread last year). Frank assured me he would task his staff to come up with solutions to make entry safe. Like Cory and many others I have grown anxious as next week approaches. I'm hopeful this is just another case of typical FIRST delays and we hear good news soon.

One approach that worked fantastic at our regional in Vegas was for me to queue the early teams day one a good hour before doors opened. I then allowed only two doors opened and let only one team in at a time followed by a 10 second count before next team in line could enter. Only had to do so for first 15-20 teams or so out of 50 total attending. Nobody had to run, entrance was most orderly and pleasant I have seen in 12 years. Second and third days the teams were self queued and even delayed their entrance following preceding team on their own. No pushing or running and happy faces all around. Cory offers some great ideas and it's not too late to implement them...or others FIRST may be planning. Fingers crossed.

[apples000]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Well, I guess I'll stop trying to change the general tone of negativity we've seen all season then. If you'll read my posts, you'll see that I have no issue with discussing the problem, posing solutions, or contacting first. Maybe i've become a little over-sensitized at this point, but for the past 3 months it seems like every time I come on CD there's another thread about how FIRST really screwed up, or how a Q&A is horrible, or how a team update screws up the game. It's been an overwhelming negative atmosphere all season, and not at all productive.

I really agree about the whole negative attitude. For some reason, it seems like CD is a nasty place this year, especially toward FIRST. We've gotten on a trend of saying stupid mean things (myself included), and it's continued throughout the whole season. We can be frustrated an upset, and we should let FIRST know our feelings, but posting in rage about how the field is screwing everybody and how the GDC and people who program the field software are a bunch of idiots is no way to solve a problem. I know that if I were in their position, I would quit after what people have been saying. All this being said, Cory's point is an extremely valid one that deals with the safety of students, mentors, and members of the public. It's kind of a safety issue.

I don't think Cory's post (possibly excluding the "FIRST fails to" portion of the title) is at all a negative or raging post. He is expressing, in a rational way, his concern about the safety of people involved in the entrance stampede, and explains a possible solution. We need to work on discussing problems, gathering and sharing information on problems, and working to solve problems, instead of just complaining about them.

My opinion is to just have everybody get in lines at the different entrances, then when the doors open, let people in slowly, and make sure to enforce a no running/super speed walking rule.

[DonRotolo]

+1 to Cory's original post.

This isn't Pamplona, and people are getting hurt. For an organization that emphasizes safety, I hope Frank reads this and just puts out a quick comment "Oh, and entry to the championships will be more orderly this year". Don't need the plan until I show up, but would be nice to know there IS a plan.

[Cory]

From an email blast to teams moments ago:

Team Entrances at CMP: This year, gates A and B will be open to allow easier access for teams entering the America’s Center. Gate A is located at the “Convention Plaza” street entrance and gate B is the “Broadway and Convention Plaza” entrance located near the Drury Hotel. Crowd control barriers will be in place, along with additional staff, to help guide teams safely through the doors, but we need your help! We ask that teams remain gracious when entering the venue

Glad to see they are addressing the issue. Hopefully it's good enough. The mad dash up the stairs/escalators and to the seats are still concerning, but this is a lot better than nothing.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Cory

From an email blast to teams moments ago:



Glad to see they are addressing the issue. Hopefully it's good enough. The mad dash up the stairs/escalators and to the seats are still concerning, but this is a lot better than nothing.

What is incredible is that controlling the mad dash would require maybe 1-2 volunteers to stand at the door and allow 40 students/1 team at a time to enter the door and make it up to the concourse before allowing the next group in. All it takes is one person to either make this safe, or one jerk to endanger a lot of people.

[Bryan Herbst]

I don't believe Jon is trying to say that he believes the situation was safe or acceptable last year, nor is he trying to say that you aren't allowed to complain before/during/after championships.

From what I read in his posts, his issue is that a lot of people are assuming that FIRST is doing nothing about it, despite the fact that Frank said in a blog post (which Cory linked to in his original post) that there would be changes for 2014.

No, FIRST has not provided any information on updated crowd control policies, and yes, Frank did say that the information would be provided at some point. However, I agree with Jon that it is too early to condemn FIRST for making the 2014 championship event unsafe before we know whether it is actually unsafe and whether any changes were made.


EDIT: It appears at least some of the plan has been announced now. See Cory's post above.

[cgmv123]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hreadid=128879

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

This isn't Pamplona, and people are getting hurt. For an organization that emphasizes safety, I hope Frank reads this and just puts out a quick comment "Oh, and entry to the championships will be more orderly this year". Don't need the plan until I show up, but would be nice to know there IS a plan.

Woo Hoo! Frank must've read my post!

(Probably not. Blogs are likely written days before they are sent, with the inevitable tweaking in-between)

But I can dream, no?

THANK YOU FIRST for listening and acting. Together we'll continue to make it better every year.