What was there before AndyMark?

[KevinG]

I participated in FIRST way back from 1999 to 2001, then went off to college and became an engineer. Last year I came back. Wow. What a difference.

When I participated teams lived or died based on their chassis. I was lucky enough to be part of a team that could get something welded from a sponsor, other teams had to make do with wood or even fiberglass. The "best" teams had 80/20 chassis that let them do whatever they wanted. Drive trains where the other killer. Everything else was secondary to making sure your chassis and drive train were solid. These days you get that in the box.

SmallParts was king. The robots were far more mechanical-focused back then, with no autonomous period. The best motors were drill motors and the van door motor, and teams had to be cautioned against using set screws because they inevitably slipped. Keyways were a rarity since the motors themselves weren't keyed. The idea of buying a gearbox pre-made for everything was completely alien.

Are things better than they were before? Yes and no. I think something is lost when you can literally buy an entire robot and spend a few days assembling everything. But that's offset by the fact that raising the floor also raises the ceiling. Instead of starting with nothing teams can start with a kit bot, and IMO that offers a lot of possibility. We're a much more technologically advanced community now, with programming and automation taking a bigger role than before. The barrier to entry is far lower, and anything that exposes more students to FRC is a good thing.

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by KGenson

I think something is lost when you can literally buy an entire robot and spend a few days assembling everything.

I don't know where people are getting this, unless by "entire robot" they mean "something that drives" and not much else.

Not that "something that drives" can't be an extremely productive part of an alliance, of course, but it certainly doesn't trivialize FRC (or even come close).

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by Oblarg

I don't know where people are getting this, unless by "entire robot" they mean "something that drives" and not much else.

Not that "something that drives" can't be an extremely productive part of an alliance, of course, but it certainly doesn't trivialize FRC (or even come close).

Yes, that's an entire robot. It has a chassis, drive train, can pass inspection, and play in the competition. And nowhere in my post did I say that doing so "trivializes" FRC, particularly since in the very next sentence I talk about how having the fundamentals of a robot provided in the kit are a good thing since raising the floor also raises the ceiling. My team particularly benefits from the KOP. We don't have a lot of equipment, mostly hand power tools, so being able to start with the chassis is ideal for us.

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by KGenson

And nowhere in my post did I say that doing so "trivializes" FRC, particularly since in the very next sentence I talk about how having the fundamentals of a robot provided in the kit are a good thing since raising the floor also raises the ceiling. My team particularly benefits from the KOP. We don't have a lot of equipment, mostly hand power tools, so being able to start with the chassis is ideal for us.

Then what exactly is "lost?" What benefit was there to a competition where most teams struggle to get something that moves?

Also, I have a hard time construing something that's not at all designed to play the specific game an "entire" robot.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by Oblarg

Then what exactly is "lost?" What benefit was there to a competition where most teams struggle to get something that moves?

Also, I have a hard time construing something that's not at all designed to play the specific game an "entire" robot.

The benefit was the experience of building the chassis and drive train, of having the students innovate and work with what they were given. Of having built something completely from scratch. Now that innovation has shifted to the manipulators and autonomous mode, with the upper echelon teams also being free to develop their drive trains and chassis. I really don't see what you're arguing about. All I said was "something" was lost when they transitioned towards a more COTS oriented foundation, and that whatever was lost was offset by what was gained with respect to opening up the game to more teams.

A team can purchase everything necessary to create a robot (including elements specifically designed for the individual competition, especially Aerial Assist) and assemble it. I suppose we can argue about whether or not using AndyMark's bumper kits count as assembly, but I put that on the same level as having to cut the frame to the right size.

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by KGenson

The benefit was the experience of building the chassis and drive train, of having the students innovate and work with what they were given. Of having built something completely from scratch.

I don't think the vast majority of teams are capable of making gearboxes from scratch, so I find it hard to lament the "loss" of this particular challenge.

Students still have to innovate and work with what they're given. What they're given now is strictly better, as far as I can tell, than what they were given in the past.

[FrankJ]

Judging from the issues some teams have with bumpers... Nothing is trivial.

[Ed Sparks]

As I recall, before AndyMark, there was darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Ed Sparks

As I recall, before AndyMark, there was darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth.

No Ed, you're confusing BC (Before COTS) with After Aerial Assist.

[OZ_341]

Originally Posted by Ed Sparks

As I recall, before AndyMark, there was darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth.

I think that was me.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by Oblarg

I don't think the vast majority of teams are capable of making gearboxes from scratch, so I find it hard to lament the "loss" of this particular challenge.

Students still have to innovate and work with what they're given. What they're given now is strictly better, as far as I can tell, than what they were given in the past.

You had a gearbox; the drill motors were attached to them.

But you're right, things are better for teams now then they were in the past.