New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed

[Cory]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

MasterCAM is really the industry standard CAM package, but it's quite expensive. If you can, get that, but I doubt your budget will cover it.

as of a few years ago you could get a seat of the educational version of MasterCAM for $1000

[Jon Stratis]

I would recommend (in order of importance):

2 vertical bandsaws
2 drill presses
1 horizontal bandsaw
1 metal break (preferably a finger break if you can find one)
1 sheer
1 Lathe
1 mill

I can't stress enough how drastically getting the break and sheer changed how our team worked and what we could do. It really was rather amazing.

For the vert. bandsaw and the drill press... I would get one full sized floor model, and one desktop model. This gives you flexibility to bring them to competition if you feel the need (I know some teams do). Having two of each really helps avoid congestion as multiple students wait for a machine to be free.

I prioritize the lathe over the mill, just because working with round stock is so much harder without a lathe, and while a mill increases what you can do, I don't think it does it quite as much as a lathe does.

As for a CNC machine... if you can get one, great! Personally though, I see that as being at the bottom of the list. Find a machine shop willing to sponsor you and run some parts every year, and you can use their CNC machine.

Instead, I would spend some of that money on a desktop 3D printer, Makerbot or equivalent (no need to go with an uber-expensive one like a Stratasys). We got one before this build season, and it's rather amazing how much it simplified some of what we do!

Also keep in mind that the final cost is not just in the machines... there's a lot of tooling that goes along with each machine! By at least two of each wearable item (extra saw blades, drill bits, cutting heads, etc) so you aren't stuck waiting for an order if one wears out or breaks.

Consider investing in an initial purchase of significant stock - something you'll then replenish each year as needed. For example, stock up on different sizes of bolts, and keep it consistent (for example, do you want to use 10-32's or 10-24's? Pick one thread count and stick with it! You'll also want bigger and smaller bolts - 1/4-20's, 8's, 6's, and 4's typically). By doing so, you can limit what you purchase in drill bits (tap and clearance for each bolt size you get) and taps - this means you can buy several of each size bit you actually need, instead of a set of bits, 90% of which wouldn't be a good size for your bolts.

[RoboChair]

Originally Posted by Steven Smith

I really wouldn't recommend this. The benefit of a band saw is that the cutting force is into the support, so if you twist the workpiece, it isn't going to hurt you, just bind the blade. Yes... a table saw CAN cut aluminum. I see people do all sorts of stupid stuff with table saws though, and at the end of the day your garden variety table saw can throw a 2x4 through sheet rock if it kicks. With 1/4" aluminum, it can likely get hot, making your first instinct to pull your hands off the workpiece... and now you have a several pound projectile taking out the kid who isn't looking. I'm sure you're perfectly capable of completing the cuts safely, but I wouldn't want this to be something your average high school student attempted.

90% of the heat goes out with the chips, and I will agree with you that your average student should not just start cutting Al on a table saw. Train 2-3 kids to be very comfortable working with a table saw(my team will NOT let a student use our table saw without a mentor, right there. Unless shown extreme competency) before they even try cutting Al. You should also always have someone to catch on the opposite side! You have to be very deliberate and focused when using a table saw. Knowledge is the BEST thing in the safety toolbox.

[JamesCH95]

WHATEVER YOU DO: Get good CAM software, like MasterCAM, and get GWizard to do your feeds/speeds calculations. GWizard is pure freakin' magic, I cut down a part program on my router from 16 minutes to less than 5 minutes after using GWizard.

This year we (95) have made great use of two machines in conjunction: a CNC plasma table and a CNC knee mill (a ProtoTrak).

The CNC plasma cutter can dice up anything from 1/32in sheet to 1/4in plate (and more) with minimal effort and is a very safe machine to use in the grand scheme of things. We cut out virtually all of the major components on our robot this year with our plasma cutter which resulted in an extraordinarily fast fabrication time.

We use the Prototrak's CNC functions to add fine features into blanks cut out with the plasma cutter. We also use it as a manual mill if we're only making a few parts. It ain't no HAAS, but it works just fine for everything we want it to.

We've also started using a Prototrak CNC lathe, manual mode only for now. It is quite nice, easy to use, and we've had great results so far. Before next season we hope to learn how to use it's CNC functions.

I (personally) have started to become proficient with my CNC router in almost anything from wood to aluminum. A CNC router has advantages like low cost, fantastically large work envelop, and pretty good accuracy (better than a plasma cutter, worse than a CNC mill). I could easily see a team using a CNC router to make virtually all of their robot parts.

These are what I have experience with and thus are what I'm suggesting for your consideration. Keep in mind that you're not making a full-time fab shop, you likely don't need every machine to be capable of running continuously for the next 10 years. I would tend to give a little more weight to 'total shop capabilities' over 'ultimate machine durability'.

[RoboChair]

I also have good things to say about HSMXpress, it is a CAM software plugin for SolidWorks and is FREE! It is not full 3D, its 2.5D but being able to make your fixture plate or vise, model it in SolidWorks and then drag in the part to machine in an assembly and generate the toolpaths is nice.

[CENTURION]

As others have said, 40k will get you a lot farther in manual machines than CNC.

A lot of the FRC parts that need CNC work tend to be sheet material. To that end, a CNC router can be a very good choice. Compared to a mill they're very cheap, and they have large work envelopes for doing panels, belly pans, etc. They're more accurate than plasma, and cheaper than waterjet or laser. They're also more versatile than those machines, as they can do "2.5D" work like pocketing, counterboring, champfering, engraving, etc. Also, you can build one yourself, they're not exceptionally complicated for FRC-trained people, as long as you put in the research time (CNCzone.com is your friend)

I'm currently designing a (pretty hardcore) router for BadgerBOTS, I'd be happy to share my CAD files, design notes, expertise, etc. with anyone interested (Just keep in mind that we're fairly early in the project). And my STUDENTS (Hi Max and Newton) should hopefully be thinking about rounding up some sponsors

For your 40k budget, you could easily get a CNC router and two or three decked out knee mills (power feed DRO, non-R8 spindle, pneumatic drawbar, VFD spindle, Kurt vise, etc) and plenty of tooling.

For quick parts, I'm also a big fan of Accurite's Millpwr conversational mill control. It can do all kinds of hole patterns, simple pockets, periphery milling, and even complex pockets and shapes. The really nice thing is that programs can be made up in seconds on the machine. And, if you have one with no Z-axis control, it's almost impossible to crash, because the operator has control of the Z, and it's pretty hard to smack the tool into things when it's at the top of it's travel. The cheapest I've found of them is around $25k

As others have also said, comparing horizonal bandsaws to verticals is pretty much apples and oranges; they're made for different tasks. I'd take a vertical though, because it can be used for many different tasks. The horizonal type is really only good for cutting stock, and if you really need to, that can be done on a vertical (Or just get a freshman and a hacksaw )

Cutting aluminum on a tablesaw sounds like a completely terrible idea to me. I don't use a tablesaw unless I really have to, and I'm always wary of high schoolers using them, because there's a lot of things that can go wrong. And when they go wrong, they tend to go very, very wrong. IF you're going to cut aluminum on a tablesaw, make sure you have a mentor supervising who really, really knows what they're doing, and knows what to do if something bad happens.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by CENTURION

As others have said, 40k will get you a lot farther in manual machines than CNC.

A lot of the FRC parts that need CNC work tend to be sheet material. To that end, a CNC router can be a very good choice. Compared to a mill they're very cheap, and they have large work envelopes for doing panels, belly pans, etc. They're more accurate than plasma, and cheaper than waterjet or laser. They're also more versatile than those machines, as they can do "2.5D" work like pocketing, counterboring, champfering, engraving, etc. Also, you can build one yourself, they're not exceptionally complicated for FRC-trained people, as long as you put in the research time (CNCzone.com is your friend)

I know that routers that have the proper controllers can do true 3D routing.

Not to be a TOTAL nit

I agree with everything else.

[sanddrag]

For those of you with a TM1-P, I'm wondering how the coolant is working out for you? Don't they hold only like 5 gallons?

I went with the Mini Mill because that's what we could fit at the time, and I like the 24 gallon capacity, and high flow pump (option).

For coolant, I'd recommend Trim 585XT and use filtered water.

For tooling, I use Maritool for holders and pull studs and Lakeshore Carbide for endmills. Don't forget you need a vise, preferably two. This can run you over $1000 for the pair.

Let me know if you need help with pricing or anything on the HAAS or tooling or or picking anything out. I've done this a couple times now.

[FrankJ]

If you are considering cnc stuff then you are already beyond this advise. But doing robots on a mid size budget.

Band saw: We have a couple of smaller Jet band horizontal saws (1/2x64" blade). They have a table that converts it to a vertical band saw. Horizontal mode is great for cutting stock. The vertical mode is a compromise, but a lot less expensive than a good vertical metal saw. Band saws are considerable safer than the other options for cutting metal. Not to say the other options are dangerous with the right training & safe guards.

Hand held powered band saw: You can get (or make) a stand. A good budget option.

Lathes: I would stay away from the minis, 7xXXs, They will do good work as long as you stay within their capabilities, but are fragile. Next size up aren't really that more expensive

Drill presses: No shop should be without them.

Mills: We have a mid size Enco model with digital readouts (DRO). A lot more useful than I thought it would be. Having something with a DRO it great for laying out holes. Makes making simple custom gear boxes a snap.

[CENTURION]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

I know that routers that have the proper controllers can do true 3D routing.

Not to be a TOTAL nit

I agree with everything else.

Hey I never said they couldn't do 3D too!

But 3D surfacing is not commonly used in FRC robot parts, at least as far as I'm aware.

[asid61]

From what our old machining mentor says, it's not worth it to get a mill or lathe unless it weighs well over 1,000lbs and runs on 220v.
Personally I think that if you get a CNC, it should be a beefy router. That way you can cut stuff like 2x1 for WCD, gearbox plates, and bellypans. They also tend to be cheaper than regular CNCs.
Any manual mill that you get should have a DRO. They are just fantastic for manual stuff.