New School / New Opportunity: FIRST or VEX?

[F Elliott]

Hi Everyone!

By day, I am an AP Physics teacher. This year I started a FIRST FTC team at my current school as an after school activity. It was a phenomenally fantastic experience for all of us. I'm hooked!

I may be going to a different school next fall (urban, Title I, at-risk...). Part of the appeal is they are extremely interested in starting a robotics program. They've already identified $7000 in grants they're confident they can get and they're asking "what more do we need to do". Their enthusiasm is high and they're serious.

They applied for and received approval for a PLTW Program in Biomedical Science starting in 2015-2016 school year. If I join their team, they want to add the Engineering component to their PLTW program (I am dual certified to teach engineering and related subjects). As you may know, the VEX Robotics Design System is the exclusive robotics platform offered to PLTW schools. In addition, every PLTW classroom has access to participate in the VEX Robotics Competitions.

I like the continuity of the FIRST FLL-->FTC progression. Their middle schools would benefit immensely from FLL. I also doubt they would ever have an FRC team so the VEX-->FRC benefits I've heard FRC coaches talk about would not be a big win. However, being able to leverage PLTW funding and resources cannot be ignored.

What would you do? FIRST only? VEX only? Both?

Many thanks!

[Max Boord]

Welcome to Chief Delphi! I think there are 2 major determining factors: cost and interest. If you can lock down 25+ students and thousands of dollars in tools and raw materials then FRC is for you. If you have the support of several teachers and 50+ students then both might be a good idea. You could do what some FRC teams do where freshman and sophomores do tabletop robotics and juniors and seniors do FRC.

To help with your decision try to talk to some local FRC/ vex teams. You can use www.thebluealliance.com to find teams local to you.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Our school has both PLTW with VEX and an FRC team. It's great to have students learning about engineering concepts through VEX in a classroom and then joining our FRC team and using them in a bigger game.

[Alan Anderson]

FLL is great, but from my point of view as an FRC mentor there really isn't a lot of continuity from it to FTC and/or FRC (besides the obvious factor of all being FIRST). The big reason I see to promote FTC over VEX is the chance to go to the FIRST Championship and see the big FRC robots in action. If you aren't expecting ever to try the FRC program, I see nothing wrong with doing both FLL and VEX.

[safiq10]

Originally Posted by F Elliott

Hi Everyone!

By day, I am an AP Physics teacher. This year I started a FIRST FTC team at my current school as an after school activity. It was a phenomenally fantastic experience for all of us. I'm hooked!

I may be going to a different school next fall (urban, Title I, at-risk...). Part of the appeal is they are extremely interested in starting a robotics program. They've already identified $7000 in grants they're confident they can get and they're asking "what more do we need to do". Their enthusiasm is high and they're serious.

They applied for and received approval for a PLTW Program in Biomedical Science starting in 2015-2016 school year. If I join their team, they want to add the Engineering component to their PLTW program (I am dual certified to teach engineering and related subjects). As you may know, the VEX Robotics Design System is the exclusive robotics platform offered to PLTW schools. In addition, every PLTW classroom has access to participate in the VEX Robotics Competitions.

I like the continuity of the FIRST FLL-->FTC progression. Their middle schools would benefit immensely from FLL. I also doubt they would ever have an FRC team so the VEX-->FRC benefits I've heard FRC coaches talk about would not be a big win. However, being able to leverage PLTW funding and resources cannot be ignored.

What would you do? FIRST only? VEX only? Both?

Many thanks!

What would you do?

I have a tad bit experience in VEX and enough in FIRST. I went from FLL--> FTC--->FRC & FTC. If you spend your time in FLL correctly then FTC becomes very easy and you begin to have a much better chance of doing well. Then if you have students properly work in FTC. Then FRC becomes an achievable challenge. Now when I say "properly spent time in" I mean that whenever students are in FLL they must begin to use sensors! I mentor 3 different teams and once you begin to use sensors and those kids go FTC it makes it much easier on them. Same with FTC if they start to CAD and think outside the box. They will have a great time in FRC.

Personally I would stay in FTC if you do have access to lots of cash because it does get expensive. (We spent $1000 dollars on parts this year alone, but we started 2 new team including an all girls team). If you are little short on Cash VEX is the way to go! I hear of teams spending $1000 over 3 seasons!

I Particpate in both FTC and FRC so if you would like to talk more you are welcomed to DM me and we can set up something so that maybe you could come down and see our program and see exactly how our continuity works.

[DCA Fan]

Have you considered VEXIQ -> VEX? In my opinion, if money is a significant issue, the startup costs for VEXIQ and VEX teams is significantly less than FLL or FTC. Feel free to contact me with questions for any of the programs, I've been involved with all of them at this point.

[scooty199]

^ I agree with the poster above, VEX and VEX IQ for elementary and middle school students is significantly cheaper from the start.

I've participated in VEX, FTC, FRC and mentor teams in VEX IQ, FLL, and VEX.

If your school is a PLTW school, I say go with VEX for now. The resources they offer for VEX and the support structure there for that program is great. One of my good coach friends is actually a PLTW teacher and he's had a very successful VEX program (Division Champions last year, Division semifinalists this year).

I do like the materials FTC uses more than the VEX, but the cost hike is a lot to me. Still like the program.

But I think for starting out at the school you are, VEX is a great start.

Btw, I went to a HS where we did both VEX/FTC.

Other HS in the area did VEX/FRC and another FTC/FRC.

[ehfeinberg]

In your situation, I would lean towards FRC over Vex. However, before I would choose one, I would bring a local team in a local team and see your students reaction (maybe try talking to 2848. They seem to be a well established team based out of Dallas).

The main reason I would lean FRC over Vex is that in FRC, the mentor/professional engineer vs student interaction is second to none. Especially for an inter-city school, I feel these kids more than anybody need some strong responsible adult figure in their life and the bonds FRC mentors can give would be really beneficial. I don't feel you would encourage and create as many bonds with a Vex program. (Less time and less mentors than a full FRC team).

As long as you can support a FRC team (which the school looks like it really does) and you have student interest, the benefits of a FRC team are much more than the benefits of a Vex team.

Just be sure to talk to other local teams and maybe take a trip to an off-season competition to make sure you know what you are getting into.

[estuckey17]

I have had a chance to do both FTC and VEX. We switched to VEX a few years ago because it was far cheaper to do so. We also didn't have very much interest in the robotics program, so VEX allowed us more flexibility. We were also able to pick which qualifier we wanted to go to (FTC does not have regionals in South Carolina), more teams get to compete longer, and we did not have to pay as much in travel costs since all of the competitions we ended up going to were in state. In my personal opinion, I prefer FTC because of the higher competition level and the fact that we get to travel more for competitions than we did with VEX. However, with FIRST, having a small team is hard to do since more jobs are given to fewer people. We were still able to have a successful season with about 10 people, but it's all your personal preference.

[DRow]

F Elliott,

Congratulations on your newly started program, and welcome to the robotics community! It’s great that you’re expanding the reach of STEM to these at-risk students, and that your new school has already been able to secure so many grants.

As for your question regarding competing in FIRST and/or VEX, there really is no wrong option. If you are able to secure the students, money, workspace and mentors needed to succeed in FLL --> FTC --> Potentially FRC, then FIRST could be a great possibility for your school. Depending on your situation, VEX IQ Challenge and VEX Robotics Competition could be a great option also.

The VEX IQ platform allows students from as early as second grade to get their feet wet with STEM. There is free curriculum offered on the VEX IQ website that spans an entire semester. This allows students to learn the basics of building a robot, while also learning other STEM applications such as friction or traction. Without even realizing it, students will begin to apply these lessons to their robots as they advance through the program, and (hopefully) make the jump to VEX EDR as they grow older.

VEX EDR works very closely with PLTW to provide positive and successful robotics programs in schools. In addition, VEX offers free curriculum that can be run at its own pace and customized to fit your student’s needs. As your school is just now beginning its robotics program, I would recommend taking a look at classroom starter kits for both VEX IQ and EDR. Each kit teaches a small group of students or an individual the basics of robot building, while the largest IQ and EDR bundles can outfit an entire classroom of 20+ students with multiple robots.

You may not know this, but VEX is based in Greenville, Texas. Less than an hour’s drive (depending on traffic) from Dallas. VEX offers in house pick-up for all orders, so you could eliminate waiting for parts to be shipped altogether if you so wanted. Also, there are more VEX teams located in Texas than in any other state in the US. Many of which are located in the Dallas Metroplex area. Here is an interactive map if you would be interested in finding events or other teams in your area for more information.

As I said before, both programs are great for getting students interested in STEM, and ultimately you should go with whatever option best suits your situation. If you happen to have any questions or concerns, please don’t hesitate to contact VEX either by phone: 903-453-0802, email: sales@vexrobotics.com, or the official VEX Forum.

Cheers,
-Dillon

[DaRealSlimShady]

Originally Posted by F Elliott

Hi Everyone!

By day, I am an AP Physics teacher.

And by night?

[gblake]

Lots of good advice here.

No one has emphasized the differences in the annual rhythms of the programs yet. Look into that when figuring out what is the best fit for your needs.

I like that each VRC (and I assume VEX IQ) season starts in April when the previous season ends (NZ and the rest of the Southern hemisphere is ready for a school year and they start setting the bar high immediately).

Other folks like that FTC starts in North America's Fall, about the time Northern hemisphere schools have already been in session for a little while.

Take a look at the RECF's RobotEvents web pages (google it), and the FIRST web pages (google it) to get a sense of the pacing of each organization's annual, world-wide, public activities/events.

Also, no one has yet discussed the difference in the tournaments' atmosphere. In FTC, I think there is *generally* more emphasis on each event having a similar level of stage-show eye candy (and I don't mean that in a bad way necessarily). In VRC, i think that there is *generally* a wider variety of tournament styles, with some being bargain-basement let's-help-the students-play-as-many-fun-matches-as-we-can, and others being more expensive and more heavily choreographed stage-shows along the lines of the FTC events.

Both styles I described above (and all the other VRC event styles you can find if you look around) have their pros and cons. Students almost always want lots of matches, and a goldilocks amount of interesting stage-show theater. Older participants often have a greater appreciation for some of the non-match ways to spend time at an event (but they can get bored too). For event producers, including the right amount of theater to get the crowd pumped up and have everyone excited for the matches is sometimes tricky.

Generally VRC/VIQ event producers have more flexibility to include local variations in their event than FRC/FTC/FLL event producers.

I disagree with any contention that any of the programs has a mentoring, or non-trivial vocational advantage over the others. Teams can choose to take both aspects of any of the programs as far as they like.

The FTC/VRC *require* less adult coaching/mentoring and vocational help, but they don't prevent, and don't fail to reward, investing just as much as you care to in both (Less risk than FRC, with nearly the same reward possible, just no 2'x3'x5' robots).

What is true is that an FRC team *typically* (but not always) needs a lot of both mentoring and vocational help in order to avoid lurching from one near failure to the next (on various time-scales, and robot production/operation scales). That is both good and bad. I don't say this to disparage FRC - A well run FRC team is a great experience for all. I say it to convey that creating a well-run an FRC team does require investing more of just about everything than some of the alternatives do.

Blake

[gblake]

Check out this other ongoing discussion
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hreadid=137539

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by F Elliott

Hi Everyone!

I think the big question is who has the biggest momentum in your area. How many tournaments are available in each?

For example here in Indy you Vex has a big advantage over FTC because a Vex team has so many choices for events while an FTC team has few. That may be flipped in other areas.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by IndySam

I think the big question is who has the biggest momentum in your area. How many tournaments are available in each?

For example here in Indy you Vex has a big advantage over FTC because a Vex team has so many choices for events while an FTC team has few. That may be flipped in other areas.

This is an excellent point!
Hawaii is predominantly VEX with over 200 teams in both middle and high school.
FRC in Hawaii has almost 30 teams. I'm not sure about FTC, but we have very few teams vs. VEX.
During the Fall, you can find either a VEX IQ/VEX event every weekend here.

Having the opportunity to play in tournaments and often, makes it much more enticing for kids to get involved with one program vs. the other.