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Unread 08-05-2014, 08:44
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AKA: Greg King
FRC #1014 (Dublin Robotics aka "Bad Robots")
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Re: Fouls that "Didn't Affect the Outcome of the Match"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siri View Post
This was already the case this year. Early weeks had 2 scoring refs and 2+1 foul refs (+head ref). By Worlds it was 2 scoring refs per ball and around 2+1 for fouls (at NYC we got up to 4+1). I still watched assists get missed at Worlds.

Certainly, but this depends on the foul being signaled, and being signaled correctly. I'll keep score (goals and fouls) in my head as a coach regardless of year. The amount of attention I pay on top of that to the projector varies by game. For 2013-type games where scores can be post-checked, I only look for fouls that get entered without signalling (happened a lot, actually). When there's basically no cross-check like 2014, you basically have to babysit the darn thing. Nonetheless, it's not uncommon for signaled fouls to be removed post-match. Occasionally there are even unsignaled fouls added post-match. More often there's a TFoul that becomes a Foul or vice versa, though I have some success predicting these with crews I've reffed with.

This is interesting. I've read some of the other fouls-deciding-matches data, and they seem to reflect that 2014 is higher than recent history (self-defined as a high school senior's FRC career). Do we understand the discrepancy? Also, since you're going by event, I wonder if there's a way to identify event-over-event trends.

I'd like to delve into 'real time scoring was better', though. I think your definition is reasonable for the OP's question, but now it sounds we're conflating that with actual quality of the game for play. Yes, real time and post-match scores are closer. Barring fouls, auton/teleop changes, and a semi-common software bug, they were almost always identical. But this isn't a sign of success--it's a sign of lack of cross-checking. In 2013, we could correctly* recount post-match, and I could tally crashes above me and flashes in front me. 2012's had a good 'one ball in one basket'; 2011 was super easy; 2010 was super slow; 2008 was closer to 2013; 2007 was 2011 with a drunken calculator; 2006 was 2013 with too much pressure on auto scores; 2005 could post-check... Yes, I did that on purpose. Let's not talk about Lunacy.

The problem with 2013 (and 2008 laps, and somewhat 2006 auto) is that when assists get missed, they're gone. Yes, real-time reflected post-match more often, but as a reflection of what happened on the field it's at least the worst in half a decade, and really it's longer.
As I said, the data I have looked at so far is only from a few events. In general I find it much more profitable to look at smaller, more complete sets of data to try to find the right questions to ask and the right techniques to use. There is no question that as a percentage of total points scored, the foul points were very high this year. But that is not necessarily the same thing as saying that the fouls were more consequential than all other years. In earlier incarnations of FRC competition, fouls weren't called like now. And generally (particularly in eliminations) meant a disqualification. I am still pondering different approaches to try in analyzing the impact of fouls on this game. I feel that most of the analyses I have read so far on ChiefDelphi have been accurate. But I also feel they have been analyses done to prove the point that this game was bad. That doesn't make them wrong, but all my statistical training and practice has taught me to look for the possibility of different approaches when an analysis confirms what you want it to confirm.

As for the scores reflecting what happened on the field, I feel the worst scoring problem I have seen in 13 years of FRC was in 2011 with the inconsistency of the minibot towers. We won two matches in regional competition with the aid of opponents not getting credit for a win they should have earned in the minibot race. As for quality of game play, I felt 2013 would have been a much better game if real time scoring had worked better. I don't think missing some assists is necessarily better or worse than not knowing whether you are ahead or behind as a match winds down.

None of this means that I think 2014 was a perfect game. It was particularly frustrating to me because there were flaws I felt were fairly easily corrected. But I also felt that in actual game play this was a fun game. For me, that is the most important aspect of any game. To be clear, I have never gone to a FIRST competitions and failed to have fun. Even when the robot is constantly breaking or failing to function properly. Even years when we went to one regional, didn't make eliminations and that was it. But there have certainly been games I enjoyed less than this one.

As a team we talked about the entertainment value of this game a lot. If you read threads on ChiefDelphi there are a ton of people that really did not like this game. There are also people who did like it. In 2011 our robot worked very well. We were also fortunate with our draw in qualifications. It is the only time we have been a top 8 team at the Championships. We had a good robot this year, but not as good as 2011. And we had a murderous draw. We went 3-7 in qualifying at the Championships this year and 9-1 in 2011. Yet the opinion of every student and mentor who participated in both years was that this game was more fun to play.
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Thank you Bad Robots for giving me the chance to coach this team.
Rookie All-Star Award: 2003 Buckeye
Engineering Inspiration Award: 2004 Pittsburgh, 2014 Crossroads
Chairman's Award: 2005 Pittsburgh, 2009 Buckeye, 2012 Queen City
Team Spirit Award: 2007 Buckeye, 2015 Queen City
Woodie Flowers Award: 2009 Buckeye
Dean's List Finalists: Phil Aufdencamp (2010), Lindsey Fox (2011), Kyle Torrico (2011), Alix Bernier (2013), Deepthi Thumuluri (2015)
Gracious Professionalism Award: 2013 Buckeye
Innovation in Controls Award: 2015 Pittsburgh
Event Finalists: 2012 CORI, 2016 Buckeye
 


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