A Request

[ehochstein]

Originally Posted by StillDefective

I live in Saint Louis, and we were actually at Union Station today, and there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that FTC AND Jr. FLL could run there. We walked around the whole thing, and you would have to move half the things in there, and it still wouldn't work. It NEVER could. Even if they, by some act of the robot god, were able to fit 128 pits and 4 fields in there, you would have to go up and down steps to get everywhere, and I don't know about you, but when you have a 60lb. cart and a 50lb. bot, that would suck on day one. It wouldn't even work for a SMALL qualifier. Maybe the Saudi Arabia qualifier where there are literately 7 teams in the country, but not 128 teams from all over. Is this a joke?

I toured the location before I left championships, did you go in and see the large ballrooms? I was able to find ramps to the ballroom from the large areas of the facility, the only area where I had to walk up and down steps was the foodcourt.

[rishroy]

Being from a high school FTC team that's been in existence for the past 4 years and just finished their rookie FRC season, this is a topic we've greatly discussed between our team (and yes, I say the singular team because everybody on the FTC team considers themselves just as much a part of the FRC team).

I think we pretty much agreed the core "divide" between the programs that causes the whole looking-down-on-FTC is that FTC isn't just about the materialistic component of the robot and heat of the competition that FRC is so widely known for. FTC delves into, and praises, multiple other factors that FIRST is striving to showcase from its progression of programs, like holding an accountable engineering notebooks and Chairman's like interviews for normal judging just to name a few. FRC is a lot more mentor based, which I'm not saying is a bad thing, but in comparison to FTC, it just has a lot more involvement from multiple other people whereas FTC seems more student based and coerced.
It's just that FTC has been so downplayed by FRC teams, it's just one more thing an FRC team can do for community outreach, but it's not. It's not just a subset of FRC, a less hyped "petty competition" that only middle schoolers seemingly participate in.
When we got the overwhelming experience of being able to compete in the FIRST World Championship this year (as an FRC team), we were so excited because we'd get to see FTC compete and other FTC teams we've seen before at regional and qualifying tournaments. And honestly, when we sat down to see FTC finals play out on the Edison (or was it Franklin? I don't remember ) field, we were so disappointed because it seemed so small and pathetic compared to the loud spirit coming from FRC division qualifying matches. It was basically the Einstein's of FTC, and all that happened was a little bit of clapping before it was just shoved off to the side again from louder MC's elsewhere.
It makes all of us pretty sad when we realize how much smaller and less FTC is in comparison to FRC, because to us, FTC is still pretty freaking great. And it must seem that way to every single other FTC member too.
Like I don't know about anybody else, but winning the Inspire award? That memory itself may overshadow the fact that we were a part of the winning alliance of the FRC LA regional our rookie season.
I don't know. I'm sorry. I got ranty. I'm just really passionate about this subject, and in all honesty, I don't know what to do about it either. I'm torn between the feeling like I have to choose between FTC and FRC, and what sucks is that I love both of them so, so much. It sucks.

#my2cents

[CENTURION]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

To be fair though, if you get a Tetrix kit, you get essentially a Lego set with no instructions to work with. There isn't nearly as much machining and hand tools work to be successful in FTC (this is coming from someone who mentored ten FTC teams last year, two of which won both qualifiers they competed at).

Personally, I love both of the programs dearly, but having worked with both, I wouldn't take the time to compare them. They're different tools in the STEM education toolbox.

Yeah, but the AM14U is pretty much a lego set, with instructions. And it's pre-built with all kinds of things already accounted for (Drop center, belt center-to-center spacing, gearbox integration, etc.) and so students don't get to learn about the importance and relevance of all those things.

But anyway, I totally agree with you, neither is better or worse or simpler or tougher than the other, they're just plain different.

[StillDefective]

Originally Posted by Wiifi

I toured the location before I left championships, did you go in and see the large ballrooms? I was able to find ramps to the ballroom from the large areas of the facility, the only area where I had to walk up and down steps was the foodcourt.

We couldn't get inside them, but there were no ramps that we saw. You can BARELY fit 64 teams inside a basketball stadium (Source: FTC North Super Regional). How are you going to fit 128 teams PLUS Jr. FLL (which isn't big but still) in Union Station?

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by StillDefective

We couldn't get inside them, but there were no ramps that we saw. You can BARELY fit 64 teams inside a basketball stadium (Source: FTC North Super Regional). How are you going to fit 128 teams PLUS Jr. FLL (which isn't big but still) in Union Station?

The workable floor of the Carver Hawkeye Arena is probably in the neighborhood of 6000 square feet (regulation hardwood is 4700, plus space from bleachers being moved). The meeting area at the Union Station Hotel is 100,000 contiguous square feet ("ballrooms" according to the website) plus an extra 43000 square feet in advertised flex space.

Am I missing something?

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by StillDefective

How are you going to fit 128 teams PLUS Jr. FLL (which isn't big but still) in Union Station?

I could have sworn that Jr. FLL was going to be with FLL in Renaissance Grand, and FTC would have Union Station to itself.

[Bryce Paputa]

First off, in Michigan FTC is a middle school program, so it's rather unfair to compare the two here. My biggest problem with it is that team numbers change every year, making it feel like every team is a rookie with no history.

[cgmv123]

Originally Posted by Bryce Paputa

My biggest problem with it is that team numbers change every year, making it feel like every team is a rookie with no history.

FTC team numbers are permanent like FRC, unless Michigan does it differently.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Bryce Paputa

First off, in Michigan FTC is a middle school program, so it's rather unfair to compare the two here. My biggest problem with it is that team numbers change every year, making it feel like every team is a rookie with no history.

You might be thinking of FLL, which recently switched to permanent team numbers.

[Bryce Paputa]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

You might be thinking of FLL, which recently switched to permanent team numbers.

No, I am talking about FTC. We must just be different with the changing team numbers, or maybe I just have a horrible memory.

[magnets]

FTC is in no way an activity for "inferior" students. There are some FTC robots that I would consider to be of higher quality than the majority of FRC robots. Does FRC have bigger and more expensive robots and competitions? Yes. Does FRC do a better job of inspiring kids to do STEM? Yes. Unfortunately, not everybody can afford to participate in FRC. FTC's finals aren't anything like Einstein, but the program itself is much larger. There's two programs because FIRST was not willing to compromise on the "varsity" aspect of FRC, but still wanted to get lots of kids involved in FIRST.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by magnets

FTC is in no way an activity for "inferior" students. There are some FTC robots that I would consider to be of higher quality than the majority of FRC robots. Does FRC have bigger and more expensive robots and competitions? Yes. Does FRC do a better job of inspiring kids to do STEM? Yes. Unfortunately, not everybody can afford to participate in FRC. FTC's finals aren't anything like Einstein, but the program itself is much larger. There's two programs because FIRST was not willing to compromise on the "varsity" aspect of FRC, but still wanted to get lots of kids involved in FIRST.

I never said FTC kids were inferior. I just said FTC isn't interesting to me. I don't want to do FLL either. I just want to dedicate my energy to FRC. Simple as that.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by magnets

There are some FTC robots that I would consider to be of higher quality than the majority of FRC robots.

I've seen VEXIQ robots better than the majority of FRC robots.

[cadandcookies]

On the whole culture change thing:

Minnesota was part of the original FLL pilot program in 1998. We've been growing an FLL volunteer basefor sixteen years now, and we have 600+ teams in the state. Our annual growth is around 20%. It has gotten to the point here where FLL is an expected school activity at the majority of elementary and middle schools in the state. Our FLL qualifiers have volunteers who have been volunteering for more than ten years. FTC is smaller, but we're looking at next year a minimum of doubling our teams next year to around 140. I would be very surprised if in the next three years the amount of sustainable FTC teams eclipses that of our sustainable FRC teams.

Why is this important?

By introducing kids to FTC and FLL at an early age, and expanding those programs, we help to make robotics an anticipated activity for elementary, middle, and high school students.

If you want to actually fix a problem, you don't go to the symptoms, you go to the roots-- in this case, the impressionable young students in elementary, middle, and high school. Like it or not, FTC and FLL are as important to culture change as FRC is. FLL is a large program than FTC and FRC combined, and FTC is going to catch up and pass FRC in terms of students and teams soon.

If you personally aren't interested in being involved with FTC or FLL, that's your deal and as intensive as FRC is I don't blame you-- you certainly aren't under any obligation to put even more of your time into it-- but don't diss the programs. They're as essential to the broad picture as FRC is.

[scooty199]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

I've seen VEXIQ robots better than the majority of FRC robots.

314A from VEX IQ World Championships this year may be the best robot I've ever seen.