The Achievement

[Madison]

I am frustrated.

Am I the only person who sees that most of the posts in this forum have become profoundly negative? Perhaps I am just looking at the past through rose-colored glasses, as the saying goes, but I can't ever recall a time when the participants on ChiefDelphi showed such little regard for the efforts and accomplishments of other teams.

Remember, everyone, that we've each put in an amazing amount of work into getting these machines finished in the past six weeks.

There have been some amazing achievements this season. Veteran teams are returning with some amazing, unusual machines. Some people are doing what we might expect. Others are not. There are returning second year teams that have machines that are beautiful. I'm quite amazed at the improvement in quality that we've seen from some teams. Likewise, the rookies are doing quite an amazing job. I can't recall a time when rookie robots were built with such quality and ambition. Congratulations to everyone for overcoming an incredibly difficult challenge.

So, rather than nitpicking about every little detail (under the veil of constructive criticism, no less), can we please start to respect the achievement of each of these respective chains. Think less about winning and what your robot does that theirs doesn't. Worry less about their weaknesses and examine their strengths.

Don't make pointless comments about slack chain, or the light, or team numbers, or your robot can push theirs. Your robot may pick up and stack bins, as do many others. Examine how they did it. Look at the thought that has gone into these robots, for a change, and stop drudging on endlessly about all of the things you think the team's didn't think of.

It's tiring, annoying, and childish. Try learning from what you see rather than trying to make people learn from you. It's all mutual, and we'll all learn in time if people just back off a little.

Sheesh.

[Yan Wang]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha....

The post you just made was so negative towards those 'negative comments' that it just cracked me up. No offense, but people are always curious, which is a good quality. We want to know and we like to ask questions. The fact that the comments are 'under the veil of constructive criticism' is irrelevant. If it's criticism, fine. When my team posts pictures, we expect to get a lot of it. But if people make stupid comments but aren't insulting, that's really not under the control of any of us. Let them look stupid.

[Madison]

Originally posted by monsieurcoffee
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha....

The post you just made was so negative towards those 'negative comments' that it just cracked me up. No offense, but people are always curious, which is a good quality. We want to know and we like to ask questions. The fact that the comments are 'under the veil of constructive criticism' is irrelevant. If it's criticism, fine. When my team posts pictures, we expect to get a lot of it. But if people make stupid comments but aren't insulting, that's really not under the control of any of us. Let them look stupid.

You achieve nothing by pointing out every potential problem a team may have with its robot. Pointing out the light may be illegal, at every possible opportunity in your case, is not from curiousity. It's just annoying, ill informed, and wastes space. I am not degrading your achievement where it doesn't exist, but the endless, unnecessary nitpicking that I've seen from the participants here is unnecessary. Robot Showcase is for the discussion of robots and their designs. The focus on finding weakness and winning strategies while stealing the attention from the achievement of the students who worked so hard for six weeks to get anything done is sickening.

If you want to consider ways of beating the robots you see here on CD, that's fine. Do it in Rules/Strategy. Do it in private. Do it elsewhere. Don't denigrate the achievement of these teams to satisfy your curiousity. If team members, in defense of their design, write something that is also ill-informed or otherwise incorrect, it's your job to educate them. Explain yourself and your reasoning so that they might learn from you. Do it for their benefit, not at their expense.

Originally posted by monsieurcoffee
The fact that the comments are 'under the veil of constructive criticism' is irrelevant. If it's criticism, fine. When my team posts pictures, we expect to get a lot of it. But if people make stupid comments but aren't insulting, that's really not under the control of any of us. Let them look stupid.

You are right to an extent. Constructive criticism is how the world gets better. But what is bothering me is how people go around and post stuff like "I already know how to beat you." or "You provide no challenge to us." Thats just stupid and is totally ungracious and unprofessional. Claims like that should not be made. Keep your claims to yourself and show them where they count. On the fields at the regional events and the championship. monsieurcofffee made a good point about if people make stupid insulting comments, they will look stupid. Yes that is very true, but it also makes the team they represent look bad, the school and ultimately the sponsor. So from all my rambling get these points out of this post:

1. If you have a rude or unnecessary comment, keep it to yourself.
2. If its going to make you, your team, or your sponsor look bad, don't post it.
3. Use common sense and think before you post!

/me tosses $0.02 into the ring

[Jeremy_Mc]

i'm going to have say that pointing out flaws shouldn't be looked down upon. it's really trying to help a team out. i can understand when you scroll through 55 posts and they're all pointing out a flaw/elaborating on a flaw that can seem like it's all negative, but if you notice most people will still comment "nice machine!" even if they point something bad out.

one thing i think you may be referring to is when a team uses the exact same setup as another team and they say "oh we can get on the ramp in 2 seconds" or some other random what have you when it's not physically possible and someone points that out to them. pointing that isn't really negative, it's purely correcting a wrong. i'm not saying teams are bluffing, but i'm saying some teams seriously don't know how to calculate things of that sort. showing them how can really help them out.

just my 3 cents (i usually never type that much)...

*jeremy

[Willum]

Personally and ultimately we're here to learn and have fun. If one feels the need to babble on about how another team will fail in comparison to their own team then nothing is being accomplished and they're asking for a let down when their own robot fails. Everyone is entitled to a little bit of pride in their six weeks of work.

Enjoy this experience, this stuff is fun so don't look to kill another person's pride and joy.

oh, remember that saying ... nobody's perfect? well apply that to robotics.

[rbayer]

There's a big difference between constructive criticism, valid questions, nitpicking, and flat-out rudeness, all of which I've seen in various forms over the past few days. Often, the difference is not in what you say, but how you say it. For example, here's a few variations that get accross the exact same meaning:

1. Dude, you better tighten up those chains or they're gonna slip.
2. How well are your chains holding up? We had some problems with a similar setup, but they all went away when we tensioned them a little.
3. Your chains suck. Go tighten them.


Another example, this time relating to student-engineer interaction:

1. Who cares that your bot can lift a stack of 20? The engineers did all the work.
2. Wow! You guys must have had some really good engineers helping out to be able to lift a stack that high!
3. Don't you guys understand what FIRST is all about? It's about students, not engineers. I wish FIRST would DQ teams like yours that have the engineers build everything.
4. <don't say anything as it isn't any of your business>


In response to Jeremy_Mc's post about teaching people, there are also multiple ways of doing it, some more gentle than others. Another set of examples:

1. You're wrong. Go look up the equation for torque in your physics book.
2. I think you may have made a slight miscalculation. Taking the force of your cylinder to be ~150pounds, and given that its mounted 6 inches from the pivot point, I'd say you probably have more like 900in-lbfs (6*150) instead of 30000. It looks like you may have gotten some units mixed up somewhere in the process.
3. Idiots. You're wrong. Have any of you graduated from Kindergarten?


Here's my take on the whole thing: people have just spent the past 6.5 weeks building what they hope is the unbeatable robot. When they finally see what other teams are doing and realize that their precious creation may not be perfect (nobody's is!), they become insecure. Hence, they lash out and find any little flaw to make themselve's feel better and like they are still in control.

Please be nice. Please be kind. Please be helpful. Above all, ask yourself, "If someone said this about my robot, would it make me upset?"

[Brandon Martus]

Originally posted by rbayer
Please be nice. Please be kind. Please be helpful. Above all, ask yourself, "If someone said this about my robot, would it make me upset?"

Amen.

[Ken Leung]

Can this the webmaster stick this post on the very top, so everyone coming in this forum can look at it?

I really hope everyone get a chance to read this thread at least once, and understand the difference between constructive critism and straight out bashing.

And always think twice before posting. Remember, you are here to learn, share, and teach, not making yourself feel good at the expense of others.

[Joel J]

I agree with the majority of what has been said earlier in this thread, however, I am slowly growing tired of reading rather long posts whenever something gets out of hand on the forums. I usually think the posts have well thought out and stated points, but why is it that these posts recur so frequently? I think its time something else be done. What? I have no idea, but if posts like these turn up frequently, it means they are getting progressively weaker at achieving their goal, for people are sometimes too hard headed to see that they are wrong. You can patch an old pair of jeans only so many times before you have to buy a new one.. thats my frustration, thank you.

[soezgg]

ITS CALLED COMPETITION. GET USED TO IT.

by the way your chain is loose and your light is illegal.


you guys must be real sensitive to take anything on the internet like this seriously.

jeebus.

[Madison]

Originally posted by soezgg
ITS CALLED COMPETITION. GET USED TO IT.

by the way your chain is loose and your light is illegal.


you guys must be real sensitive to take anything on the internet like this seriously.

jeebus.

Perhaps we'd all be a little better off if more people did take this seriously.

Thanks for your input.

[MBurr-Mecum]

No no, RAGE's chain wasn't loose, ours was, and we would have loved for someone to tell us at the scrimmage so that we could have moved before the elimination rounds. Point out problems, certainly, but do it if and when it will be of help to the team you are pointing them out to, and remember that just because you're communicating electronically, that doesn't mean people won't mind or won't remember which team you represent.

[Dan Richardson]

ITS CALLED COMPETITION. GET USED TO IT.

by the way your chain is loose and your light is illegal.


you guys must be real sensitive to take anything on the internet like this seriously.

jeebus.

sorry to say but mayb it would be better off without people with attitudes like that, First is much more than a Competition, if thats all your in it for, go join Battle bots or whatever.
FIRST is about what you learn, the relationships you make, and the lessons you'll carry with you through life, if thats not what your all about I suggest a change in thought pattern or a change in robotic related events.

If its not wholesome for the community, don't bother posting

Dan

Team 710

[f22flyboy]

I've never learned anything from a compliment

I thank anyone who criticizes the design flaws of our bot, because it helps to develop strategies to compensate for that flaw.