Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

Really? He's been at a few events where I know you were, too. My advice: Find him. Good "kid"*

Yes, it does.

OK, seriously: Ryan, CD has always had some bickering; what we are seeing today is just more of it. In the past, the 'trustees'** of CD would either PM, or negative rep, or outright ban someone who was practicing "Obnoxious Amateurism"***, or just a troublemaker.

Whats' changed is that we are seeing reduced involvement of the trustees. I am not trying to criticize Brandon Martus, but many in the CD community would be tickled pink to help him maintain decorum.

CD is not like other fora on the Interweb: We have a younger crowd here, and "Gracious" is a key word in our vocabulary. We can change it, but we need moderators who will do it and admins who believe it is the right way to run a forum.

Good post Ryan, thank you.

Don


*Kid to me, since I'm such an old fart. It's all relative.
**Mostly the forum moderators, but fewer and fewer are active these days. Possibly because the atmosphere is different.
***The opposite of Gracious Professionalism.

.

Maybe I just have a far different memory of the old CD than most...

It was far harsher than the CD I see now. I see a lot of folks complaining at people being too harsh or disagreeing with opinions. But none of that is new.

A quick waltz through some threads found several of these "trustees" saying some pretty nasty things. I'm not doing this to call them out, merely to point out that it's always been this way and that saying "Let's go back to the old days" is at best a pointless thing to say.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...?postid=280908 Jumping on someone for asserting that you don't need a degree to be an engineer.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...336#post649336 Refusing to argue with folks about subjects

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=40 Grammar Police

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...227#post211227 Put up or Shut up!

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...804#post316804 Copious usage of sarcasm

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...415#post319415 Calling folks stupid


Why'd I pick these two? Well, because I recalled reading them and used Spotlight to find them. I could have found hundreds more threads but my coworkers were looking at me funny and wondering why I was giggling. Now, you could argue that I cherry picked my threads, you're right. I could also argue that the counterpoint would use cherry picked threads.

So, what am I saying here? The issue of being rude to each other has always been there. We need to work on it (heaven knows I need to sometimes not be such a... let's just say punk). But the big thing we're missing is that so many of the folks that made CD a great resource? They've stopped posting. And I get that, life gets in the way. The community is a lot darker without folks like Ken Patton, Andy Baker, Paul Copoili, Mike Martus, Dr Joe, and their ilk sharing their insights. Why? Because they were folks who, while having massive engineering chops, were also passionate about sharing that knowledge.

Want to bring CD back to how it was? Bring back solid technical discussion.

Designing a drivetrain? Post your calculations along with the CAD. Explain to me what variables went into your drivetrain this year and why you chose a 3CIM ball shifter? And I mean, more than, well, 3 CIMs for MOAR POWAH and Shifter for MOAR SPEED! What variables were you trying to optimize? How did you compute that?

Get rid of the BS political handwringing - Who the hell CARES if a company uses the patent system to make a profit? Take their money, say thank you, and then be inspired to go fix the patent system. Want more women in FIRST? Don't harass me about how my friends aren't diverse enough, help me recruit more women to STEM.

[Whippet]

Originally Posted by Mastonevich

I know people that have never and probably will never post anything on Chief Delphi because of the nature of the community to correct everything. Fear is a powerful motivator.

On the other hand, I am never afraid to post on CD if I'm pretty sure I'm correct, because if I'm wrong, I'll be corrected within minutes by a more well-established member. I have learned quite a bit this way, and will probably be learning like this to at least some degree until I die.

[JRuegsegger]

It is part of the nature of engineers to improve upon systems, in a general sense. It should thus be desirable to improve upon the system known as Chief Delphi, rectifying its weaknesses and developing its strengths. While it is possible, even evident, that this forum has been just as hostile in the past, as a community we should not feel justified in maintaining an undesirable environment. The CD community is ultimately responsible for the contents of its own forum, and thus should take ownership, as a community, for how it will operate in the future.

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by Hallry

I’ve never talked to Brandon Holley in person, but something that he said once has stuck with me lately. His custom user title reads “Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be”, which we should all strive to do.

You can't go back, only forward. (Entropy, heat death, etc...)

The internet has been developing as long as FIRST. The internet is a Tower of Babel, reflecting the ease and diversity of the opinions of the hoi polloi. Do you want freedom or not? Would you prefer a lockstep monoculture?

I don't find that the commentary here is any worse for wear than it was in the past. We have always had our "pilot light" wars.
I find that the posts responding to contrary ideas and correcting each other to be forthright.

Many of us are engineers or have those proclivities. We always see a construction and think, "That's nice, but it could be better.", or, "I concur.", or "Are you crazy?" So we respond.

Let's move forward whilst maintaining our graciousness.

[Christopher149]

On a less controversial side of things, I like that I haven't seen full-on spam threads on CD for a while. Please, let us not go back there...

IMO, compared to much of the Internet as a whole, CD can be a rather more civil place than most. I'm reminded a bit by a quote (that I think might be from Woodie Flowers, and I'm paraphrasing) is that one of the biggest problems in life are those things that we know, that just aren't so. Be willing to take criticism, know when you're wrong, and give criticism where it is due (without jumping into a pot of boiling anger).

As long as CD remains a civil discourse, a resource for sharing, thanking, and working through problems, things will be okay.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

Really? He's been at a few events where I know you were, too. My advice: Find him. Good "kid"*

Yes, it does.

OK, seriously: Ryan, CD has always had some bickering; what we are seeing today is just more of it. In the past, the 'trustees'** of CD would either PM, or negative rep, or outright ban someone who was practicing "Obnoxious Amateurism"***, or just a troublemaker.

Whats' changed is that we are seeing reduced involvement of the trustees. I am not trying to criticize Brandon Martus, but many in the CD community would be tickled pink to help him maintain decorum.

CD is not like other fora on the Interweb: We have a younger crowd here, and "Gracious" is a key word in our vocabulary. We can change it, but we need moderators who will do it and admins who believe it is the right way to run a forum.

Good post Ryan, thank you.

Don


*Kid to me, since I'm such an old fart. It's all relative.
**Mostly the forum moderators, but fewer and fewer are active these days. Possibly because the atmosphere is different.
***The opposite of Gracious Professionalism.

.

Don, I agree wholeheartedly. It's not something that could be fixed in a day, but over time I think it could be brought back at least to the same level of politeness.

I know that one of the major complaints I've seen from long-time members is simply the drastic drop off in signal-to-noise. It used to be (a decade ago) that a large majority of the posts had worthwhile content. Now you get just as many "me too", meme, or fluff posts that don't have any useful or original content. I don't know any solution short of taking a far more strict standpoint on what type of posts are allowed in forums outside the social ones.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

In high school my friends and I used to joke that we would be able to better present ourselves to colleges and scholarships committees due to the fact that we spent so much time on Chief Delphi. We were ripped apart so often for poor spelling and grammar that we made a large effort to try and present ourselves in a more professional manner. In fact, I still think a lot of my internet writing style comes from thinking "How would Andy Baker try to communicate this?".

A lot of this is true. I have friends on teams heavily involved in FIRST who are role models to their community and fellow teams who say that CD is only negativity, mindless criticism, and a hive mind where opinions are discouraged due to the need to be "GP". And as an involved user who thinks CD has the potential to be a great resource, I wholeheartedly agree. I only come on here because I have hope that there will occasionally be the rare learning opportunity or person asking for help in a topic I can assist with. I haven't posted any CAD I've done for months on Chief because I get no constructive criticism from it, and neither do my friends who, like me, are now choosing to spread their designs and talk about FIRST through other social media websites rather than Chief Delphi.

Thank you, Ryan, for bringing this up in the fashion you did. It's been attempted before, but I have a feeling this may actually get something accomplished. Also, Happy Birthday!

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

In high school my friends and I used to joke that we would be able to better present ourselves to colleges and scholarships committees due to the fact that we spent so much time on Chief Delphi. We were ripped apart so often for poor spelling and grammar that we made a large effort to try and present ourselves in a more professional manner. In fact, I still think a lot of my internet writing style comes from thinking "How would Andy Baker try to communicate this?".

The torch is being passed on to members such as you and Brandon and Carolyn Grace, Tom.

It is right for the torch to be passed on. Some torches will illuminate, as Andy Baker's has done, and others won't. The flame will burn or sputter ... It is up to the leadership qualities and character of the person who chooses to post in CD as an active participant. It has always been that way. From the time I began posting, I would look for your posts, Tom. They have always helped to lead the way. I value that. Leadership is something to be tended with grace and kindness as much as experience and knowledge. Dr. Flowers understands that balance very well and has talked about it many many times.

Jane

[billylo]

In the world of programmers, technical Q&A forums are used a LOT and very successfully (i.e. the useful content ratio is very high in some places).

One of the most successful one is called StackOverflow.com. Powered by a free community software called StackExchange.

StackOverflow revolves around technical questions and answers. No political debates; practical questions only. Answers can be ranked by readers so that the most useful answer floats to the top.

If there is a desire to bring CD back to a tool for roboteers, rather than a platform for debates, I would highly suggest us to take a look at the StackOverflow model or try hosting a site there. They have to be doing something right as StackExchange is increasingly popular with 5.4 million users.

[Duncan Macdonald]

Thank you for starting this thread, maybe we could pin it somewhere highly visible (Top of the portal comes to mind).


While we try to keep CD moving forward a couple of things that I would advocate removing/reducing:

-Reaction gifs. In a community consisting of freshmen and rocket scientists we are going to say/learn something that someone else finds simplistic or wrong. In my opinion reaction gifs rarely contribute to the tread and are sometimes used to intimidate or belittle others.

-When people say

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to OP again."

If we really have less then 10 people generating meaningful content can we eliminate this forum rule? Or can you just green dot 9 other somewhat useful posts? Posting this often feels like people wanting attention for sharing opinions or being a good person.

That said, maybe I'm no fun and out of touch. I'd be interested if anyone has any opinions on these or other items.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Maybe I just have a far different memory of the old CD than most...

It was far harsher than the CD I see now. I see a lot of folks complaining at people being too harsh or disagreeing with opinions. But none of that is new.

A quick waltz through some threads found several of these "trustees" saying some pretty nasty things. I'm not doing this to call them out, merely to point out that it's always been this way and that saying "Let's go back to the old days" is at best a pointless thing to say.

Andrew has a lot of truth in this, especially on the technical information that over time proved informative enough that a business major could learn enough to be dangerous. I know Dave laid the smackdown on me here on at least one occasion--but I deserved it. I don't find any fault with blunt, well-written come-on-you-guys discussion when a person knows their stuff.

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

In high school my friends and I used to joke that we would be able to better present ourselves to colleges and scholarships committees due to the fact that we spent so much time on Chief Delphi. We were ripped apart so often for poor spelling and grammar that we made a large effort to try and present ourselves in a more professional manner. In fact, I still think a lot of my internet writing style comes from thinking "How would Andy Baker try to communicate this?".

My post count here on CD is...high, but it would be thousands more if I posted every post I aborted because I couldn't hit that level of quality. Not even just spelling and grammar, even the thoroughness of my research or argument. The spelling and grammar seem to have improved by my seat-of-the-pants measurement, but it is something that we have to keep an eye on as a community. I speak from experience: this is a very, very marketable skill in any profession.

Originally Posted by Duncan Macdonald

While we try to keep CD moving forward a couple of things that I would advocate removing/reducing:

-Reaction gifs. In a community consisting of freshmen and rocket scientists we are going to say/learn something that someone else finds simplistic or wrong. In my opinion reaction gifs rarely contribute to the tread and are sometimes used to intimidate or belittle others.

-When people say If we really have less then 10 people generating meaningful content can we eliminate this forum rule? Or can you just green dot 9 other somewhat useful posts? Posting this often feels like people wanting attention for sharing opinions or being a good person.

Reaction GIFs have their place in my eyes (sparingly, and generally as an alternate form of praise), but I will say something about reputation. According to the CD control panel, my reputation-giving power is currently 622 points. That's a large swing for a user with fewer posts, which may have a greater effect than I might deem necessary. That colors my decision to leave positive/neutral/no reputation on a post. Your mileage may vary.

Posting this way also has the secondary effect of a public endorsement, which can have its own effects on discussion. I'd agree that an in-depth reply is better, but nobody's perfect.

[DampRobot]

I don't have a problem being told I'm an idiot from time to time, as long as the accusation has at least some basis in reality. I usually only try to post about stuff I know about, but there are times when someone's given me bad information or I'm just plain wrong. And especially if I'm being a jerk about being wrong, I can live with being told to go jump in a lake.

In regards to criticizing official FRC people, for the most part I see it as a good thing. I never want to be a part of a community where people follow what is said on high as gospel. Because of the nature of the sport, we have a greater of risk of becoming culty than the average sport. I'd much rather have people criticize FIRST people from time to time than give the impression that we're all whackos who worship at Dean Kamen's feet. In any case, a certain degree of criticism is necessary in order to keep improving the sport and the organisation. The fact that they work hard shouldn't be an all-encompassing shield that protects FRC staff and volunteers from any accusations of wrongdoing. Of course, sometimes things do get kind of out of line...

I'm fine with the level of criticism on CD right now, this forum really doesn't seem like a place where people go just to slam each other. The hero worshiping and hivemind can be annoying, but aren't really the biggest problem either. As others have said, this forum could become a lot better if people just talked about technical/strategic stuff more. That's the biggest thing we stand to improve on.

[Oblarg]

I can see two problems with the forum right now:

1) There is not enough technical discussion. There is far more activity in threads griping about "things I don't like about this year's game" than anything else, and these are generally unproductive and they very often breed ill-will and negativity.
2) The atmosphere is not always conducive to providing helpful feedback to people who need it. People who post incorrect things are often swamped with condemnations for being wrong rather than helpful corrections.

We'd all do well (myself included) to step back and realize people are in FIRST to learn. If everyone already knew everything, they would not need to post here. If every team were successful at all aspects of FIRST, there would be no purpose for anyone to participate.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

In regards to criticizing official FRC people, for the most part I see it as a good thing.[...]I'd much rather have people criticize FIRST people from time to time than give the impression that we're all whackos who worship at Dean Kamen's feet. In any case, a certain degree of criticism is necessary in order to keep improving the sport and the organisation. The fact that they work hard shouldn't be an all-encompassing shield that protects FRC staff and volunteers from any accusations of wrongdoing. Of course, sometimes things do get kind of out of line...

I must agree on this, with one caveat: The criticism needs to be both constructive and, to some degree, warranted. Constructive, so that the problem can be fixed; warranted, because there should actually a problem and not just someone misinterpreting the rules or having a bad day.


Incidentally, this isn't the first thread on this sort of topic, and I'm sure it won't be the last. I started one a few years back, during a particularly snippy offseason. Looks like CD, like the rest of the world, runs in cycles. I suppose in a couple of years it'll be spamfest again.