Limiting Rookies in Canada next year?

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by tcjinaz

With districts out here in the wild wild west, I've got a problem raising travel money. In another thread, someone proposed as SW US district, AZ, NM, TX OK. The teams in Yuma would have a 1500 mile trip to district championships in Omaha. That's not going to work. Most of AZ (Yuma to CA), NM, S Nevada, Utah, S CO might work. State borders will need to be ignored.

Isn't Omaha in Nebraska? I was just there a couple weekends ago, and while they certainly have a very nice center to host a District Champs, there are no FRC teams in Nebraska. If I remember correctly at one point the VEX US National Championship was held there, but the FIRST family of programs is almost non-existent in Nebraska.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Daskov

it says that FIRST Canada will be restricting the number of rookie teams this year. Rookie teams will now have to fill out an application form to be reviewed and approved if you wish to start a team.
This is due to lack of funding for FIRST Canada- they don't have enough money to support the growth that Canada has.
As Canada is moving to the district system in a few years, this will really limit the number of Canadian teams able to go to World Champs. Needless to say, I am very disappointed with the news.
FIRST World Champs heavily pushed starting new teams, and then they do this. There is already some bias against Canadian teams, as many of us Canadian's have found over the years, so this plus the districts feels like they are really pushing us aside.
I hope that this is not needed in 2016.

I would like to see the proof behind some of these conclusions.

The district system does 'limit' the number of teams that can go. As districts have been implemented in areas, it has been a goal in most areas to allow as many teams to go after the district system as went before it. In fact, they just changed the number of Michigan teams allowed to go based on %'s to keep it correct with our new influx of teams.

I'm not sure what you mean by bias against Canadian teams either: judges are volunteers and any team who avoids picking a team just because they are of a particular nationality is only hurting themselves.

[highlander]

IMHO this is a very poor decision. To me, they are sending an implied message that they are limiting growth and innovation, and not giving all the potential kids a chance to experience FIRST in it's fullest. Not classy at all.

[XaulZan11]

I don't like to speak for others, but perhaps the "districts pushing Canadian teams aside" is related to that over 25% of Ontario teams qualified for the championship last year*. If/when Canada (or part of Canada) switches to districts, this number is sure to decrease. I could see how a switch to districts could be viewed as pushing Canada aside.

*Source: 1114's April 6th Facebook post.

[tcjinaz]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

Isn't Omaha in Nebraska? I was just there a couple weekends ago, and while they certainly have a very nice center to host a District Champs, there are no FRC teams in Nebraska. If I remember correctly at one point the VEX US National Championship was held there, but the FIRST family of programs is almost non-existent in Nebraska.

DOH!

I'm a forgetful old fart (forgive just a little, but fly-over country comes to mind . Should have been to Oklahoma City, just 1200 miles. Still an airline trip instead of a bus, to avoid too many NCLB negative school days (yes, it still lives, despite Common Core.) Still, not like going to San Diego from Yuma; that saves potentially two nights of hotel on a bus death march.

[LeelandS]

I'm curious to see what a member of FIRST Canada who knows intimately of this decision has to say.

One of the main goals of FIRST has always seemed to have been "grow the program." FIRST Canada has undergone an outstanding growth in the past 2-3 season. Since 2012, when the regional in Montreal started up, FIRST Canada has seemed (from my perspective, anyway) to have undergone some of the most successful expansion-of-program I've ever seen in 7/8 years of FIRST.

It seems plausible to me that this is a "too much of a good thing" scenario. FIRST Canada has probably been thrilled with their growth in the past several years; however, it is possible that they're realizing they're stretching their resources thin. As many of you know, one of the Greater Toronto Regionals (I want to say West) was hosted at Crescent School, home of 610. While I'm sure 610 did a great job of hosting the event and that their dedication and contribution was very appreciated, many are also aware that there were severe space limitations. I would venture to say that similar situations are popping up where venue space, volunteer power, and overall funding are being stretched too thin to support the rapidly growing population of teams in FIRST Canada.

Given this, the logical solution, for the time being, seems to be to slow the growth of the population of teams. It would be unfair to tell already established teams that they cannot compete because "there are too many of you." So the only plausible solution is to limit the number of rookies being allowed to join. I don't agree with the solution, nor do I like it, but FIRST Canada is run by some smart people, and I'd venture a guess that they know more about their situation than I do. So if they feel it's necessary, I'm sure it is.

Naturally, that's purely speculation. I am very interested to hear from someone with intimate knowledge of the situation.

[Knufire]

A point of discussion that came up in a Facebook thread on this subject was whether a region should prioritize growth rate or retention rate. I do not have specific numbers, but I am under the impression that Canada had a rather excellent retention rate other than the 2013 teacher strikes. It could be possible that they are not willing to increase the growth rate to the point that it starts adversely affecting the retention rate.

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

I'm a little bit curious about this line of thought. I know historically there has been a large amount of flak directed at Canadian teams travelling to other regionals (like 1114 at Pittsburgh in 2011, ugh), but I'm not sure how FIRST pushing for Canadian/Ontario districts can be taken as "pushing Canadian teams aside." Could you elaborate? My understanding of the District model is that regions are given a number of slots based on the amount of teams they have relative to the total amount of FIRST teams/the amount of teams attending Champs. Isn't the model just bringing the amount of Canadian teams attending Champs into proportion? I remember an analysis last year that Ontario was the most overrepresented region at Champs*. I get that frankly Ontario is one of, if not the most competitive, region in the world, but proportionally it does end up soaking up a lot of spots at Champs. I haven't seen any data from this year though, so I can't comment on whether it was the same in 2014.

*Full disclosure, Minnesota was the most underrepresented if I remember correctly

Credit to Navid Shafa from 1983 for the data.

[john.hobbins]

FIRST Canada would like to address this misunderstanding regarding the Face Book posting: We are absolutely not limiting the number of rookie FRC teams this year. There was an error in the posting and it should have read:
"FIRST Canada is pleased to provide the following rookie team application packages for the 2014-15 season.
We encourage our veteran teams to help recruit new FRC teams and schools in their areas".
We apologize for any misunderstanding this error may have caused.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Knufire

Credit to Navid Shafa from 1983 for the data.

Thanks, I knew someone would be able to find the data

[RonnieS]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they want to bring the quality of their rookie teams to new levels. Work on quality instead of quantity.Something I wish First would stress more on. I mean it IS an application process if the sources are correct so if the reviewers see that they have money, the correct mentor support, and resources then those will most likely be the teams accepted. No rookie team likes having a season where they have mentors leave, people they can't rely on; then we come to week 5 with kids crying because they don't have a robot to compete with or they lack support from mentors. I know a lot of people will disagree but I believe it needs to be said.

[Alpha Beta]

Originally Posted by Ronnie314

I'm going to go out on a limb....

Back off that limb. FIRST Canada has already clarified what their original message meant.

Originally Posted by john.hobbins

FIRST Canada would like to address this misunderstanding regarding the Face Book posting: We are absolutely not limiting the number of rookie FRC teams this year. There was an error in the posting and it should have read:
"FIRST Canada is pleased to provide the following rookie team application packages for the 2014-15 season.
We encourage our veteran teams to help recruit new FRC teams and schools in their areas".
We apologize for any misunderstanding this error may have caused.

[Racer26]

The notion that FIRST Canada is hurting for money is utterly ridiculous.

Each year, I've seen FIRST Canada provide various Canadian teams with grants to help them get to championship where qualified, and even helping them get to a second regional. There is no evidence to suggest that FIRST Canada is in a bad spot in terms of money.

Mr. Hobbins has clarified that they are not limiting rookies (as I'm sure we can all agree that would be silly), and that is good. There certainly is a pinch for capacity in Ontario, though.

Some teams struggled this year to get the two or three regionals they usually do without needing to travel great distances. Yes, Ontario has 5 regionals now. They're spread out though, and most of Ontario's teams hail from within half an hour of Toronto. GTRWest shrunk in size by ~50% in 2014, to a capacity of 30 (down from 65+), despite being geographically the closest regional to some 55ish Ontario teams. Hopefully districts helps to alleviate this problem, because Toronto area in particular needs more capacity.

To the poster talking about representation at CMP? Ontario is quite overrepresented at CMP, when compared against FiM and MAR. FiM and MAR both send around 10% of their teams, IIRC. I expect that FiM and MAR are sending about what HQ wants from a given area, and I would expect with a move to districts that Ontario will send fewer teams, BUT, they'll be of a higher caliber on average, because of the ranking system.

[nuclearnerd]

Originally Posted by Racer26

Ontario is quite overrepresented at CMP, when compared against FiM and MAR. FiM and MAR both send around 10% of their teams, IIRC. I expect that FiM and MAR are sending about what HQ wants from a given area, and I would expect with a move to districts that Ontario will send fewer teams, BUT, they'll be of a higher caliber on average, because of the ranking system.

I agree that Ontario sends more then our fair share of teams to Champs, *but* the calibre of teams we send is already pretty high IMHO. Of the 29 Ontario teams that made it to champs this year, 13 went on to division eliminations - almost 45%. (several more won other awards). For comparison, only 32% on average (32/100) of all teams at champs make it to elims. I know: Lies, D. Lies and Statistics, but at least we're pulling our weight

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Alpha Beta

Back off that limb.

No, go out on that limb.

I've long been a proponent of establishing FRC teams instead of merely starting them. I saw this post and got excited because I figured maybe, just maybe, FIRST is waking up to the fact that every failed team (and roughly 50% or more of FRC teams that ever form have failed) hurts their goals more than most people realize. A failed team is like dropping a carcass in a well. It rots and destroys the well. And sometimes that gets back into the water table. The teacher/contact thinks FIRST is too hard/expensive. The students think STEM is too hard for them. They think it's for people better than them.


Isn't our goal twofold? We're supposed to build a culture where STEM Professionals are celebrated like the pop culture celebrities and a culture where kids realize that STEM is a field where they can all go pro right? Failed teams have lasting negative impact on the culture by spreading seeds of "can't".


We should focus on ensuring that every FIRST team we establish has a sustainable base. This is done by building relationships with sponsors, mentors, and the community. Teams consistently without all three of these are destined to fail. Maybe not fail as in go under but fail in the sense that they are not being as effective at our goals as they COULD be.


How can FIRST do this? Stop accepting rookies without a business plan, without at least a PLAN for establishing these partnerships. Without showing that they have a plan for when (not if) Bad Things(tm) happen. Because, you know what, even if the plan is total crap you've at least forced them to think it through. Cuz Bad Things will happen.


So, Ronnie, kudos on asking one of those taboo questions.

[Jonathan Norris]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I've long been a proponent of establishing FRC teams instead of merely starting them. I saw this post and got excited because I figured maybe, just maybe, FIRST is waking up to the fact that every failed team (and roughly 50% or more of FRC teams that ever form have failed) hurts their goals more than most people realize. A failed team is like dropping a carcass in a well. It rots and destroys the well. And sometimes that gets back into the water table. The teacher/contact thinks FIRST is too hard/expensive. The students think STEM is too hard for them. They think it's for people better than them.

THIS. Starting and running a FRC team is hard, really hard, you need to have the commitment to stick with it for years to build up the organization. FIRST should focus more on sustainable rookies, and helping to build up weaker FRC programs. Churn is a major issue that can burn bridges with schools and students that we need to reach.

I commend FIRST Canada for making rookies apply for their grants, we need to ensure sustainable teams are getting started.