A Request

[Taylor]

May I suggest that a possible reason behind the disparity is that FRC is FIRST Robotics Competition while FTC is FIRST Technical Challenge?
The words used in their titles, to me, suggest that the former is more exciting, while the latter is more academic.

[pwnageNick]

I've been watching this thread, and I was going to just observe, but I decided I would throw my perspective in. I'm not going to comment or add on to anything else anyone has said.

I started out my robotics career in FLL during 8th grade. While it was initially interesting because you were using LEGO's and motors and it's all very exciting, it lost its appeal quickly. Now my team had some issues with kids quitting 4 weeks in (wasn't their thing) so my team was basically two people, myself included, the whole season. While this was great as I had hands on experience, it came to a point where you end up having to do a lot on your own. Also, I remember not being a fan of the "Research Presentation" and the "Teamwork Presentation" because I just couldn't buy into the whole skit/song and dance stuff. What really kept me going in robotics was seeing the VEX (FVC) teams works on the other side of the room during our meetings and wanting to work with those. It was that draw of "the big show" that propelled me to keep going with it. Keep in mind at the time our FRC team had not started yet (2008). This isn't to say I didn't learn anything from FLL, I certainly did, and I think if anything it probably taught more about working with the people on your team and how to follow through with something.

Freshman year came and I moved on to VEX. This was the first year that VEX had it's own separate competition as FTC went to the tetrix stuff. While our organization did start an FRC team for this year, it was mostly the kids that had been doing VEX, so we decided I wasn't ready for that. This first season of VEX is where I really learned a lot of the base principles of thinking design through strategically, working with tools, all the basics. There is a lot to be said about what can be gained from participating in VEX. Probably the biggest thing is it teaches you so much about the iterative process because it allows you to change designs after testing things out on the fly much easier. I had a great season and learned a lot, and I did not feel like I was missing out on anything.

Then came next year, when my perception would change.

Before the next season (2010-Breakaway) our FRC team split into two teams (differing parent opinions about how mentors should be involved, etc.) so the group that stayed with our organization was only 3-4 students and we lost the sponsorships they had. I wasn't going to do FRC as the team was not looking to be in good shape and we figured I would learn and gain more from competing in VEX then building a robot out of supplies from ACE Hardware in a classroom or wood-shop. Then in early December, about a month before kickoff, we found this company. We initially asked them for a space to work in since the space they had used before was being used by the other group from the old team. The company invited some of the kids from last season and the main parents to the building to meet and talk about what FRC is, etc. By the end of that exchange, not only were we given a fantastic place to work with a full machine shop, but they were going to support the team financially and have some of their engineers help with mentoring the team.

If it had not been for Genesis Automation in December 2009, I'm not sure what Team 2949 would have done that season; in fact there's a good chance the team might not exist today.

Once this happened, I decided to join FRC right before kickoff and we started the 2010 season with roughly 8-9 kids. I learned so much more just in that first season of FRC then I ever have in VEX. And it's not because we were able to have some super custom robot with fancy sheet metal and custom wheels. Our robot that year had an 80/20 frame, a shop vac retro-fitted with a CIM, and a surveyors pole with wire shoved into it to extend and hang. It was Genesis' first FRC season as well, so we all had a big learning curve, and I learned so much. Working alongside those engineers taught me so much even though they were guessing about things sometimes too. Before this season (2014) I don't think I've ever been prouder then when we made it to the finals at the Midwest Regional after finding a way to get past 111 and 1625 in the semis. And we were given the Engineering Excellence. The 8-9 kids we had on that team learned so much in such a short amount of time. I don't think there's any chance I could have learned the things I did in that year alone in any amount of years of VEX.

That being said, without having done VEX, I'm not sure I would have been ready for FRC, or that I would have been able to get as much out of FRC because I wouldn't have had some of those lessons learned already.

Two more FRC seasons later and by the end of high school I was like a different person. Being on an FRC team opens up the educational possibilities from a robotics program a ton. You could not ask for a better learning experience then working alongside professional engineers.

Now I know not every FRC team has the same resources, money, mentorship level, machine shop, etc. But overall while I think VEX helps you learn basic building skills, and really really reaaaaaally (cannot stress this enough) helps develop game analysis skills and learning how to strategically design, VEX cannot take you to that next level of learning.

It's like someone playing the Trumpet all through school in class all the time. Sure they will learn the basic skills and continue to improve, but if you want to move to that next level and learn the really detailed techniques and such, taking private lessons will take you there.

This post kind of got long, and maybe drifted a bit, but overall I suppose my point is that I don't believe anyone should (or does) not respect FTC (or VEX). I think it can make students much better and it can really help prepare them for learning at the next level, like a stepping stone.

Here's where I'll get blunt. Is FTC/VEX an inferior competition? Yes. It is. And I think we all know it is. If it wasn't then we wouldn't be having this conversation. It doesn't take a students educational experience as far. And if you want to talk about culture change, I've never seen someone look at an FTC/VEX robot, and audibly say wow unless it was expanding to be huge (*couch* *cough* Bowled Over *cough* *cough*). But when a random person or someone from a potential sponsor sees an FRC match in person, that makes them want to get involved. Just the way it is. Bigger is better for attracting people when it comes to competition robots driving around.

tl;dr

-Is FTC/VEX a fantastic tool that can help students learn and get engaged in STEM and prepare them for a career in some kind of engineering, etc.? Yes.

-Does FTC/VEX help better prepare students and set them up to succeed more in FRC? Yes.

-Can students learn as many skills in FTC/VEX as FRC? Depends on the resources of the FRC team, but in the high majority of cases: No.

-Is FTC/VEX an inferior competition to FRC? Yes.

-Is FTC/VEX more affordable/accessible/scale-able? Definitely


^^ That last point is what's important. The FRC teams out there who get a kitbot drive on the field with very little or nothing else on the robot perhaps should be competing in FTC/VEX because it would most likely fit their resource allotment better and would allow their students to learn more from the experience.

In addition to that, there are some FTC/VEX programs out there who have tens of thousands of dollars in their FTC/VEX programs, and at some point it could be smart to start an FRC team so that you can move kids through to FRC after a couple years of VEX to further expand their learning experience.

As a side note, I personally think that VEX is a better options for teams stretching resources as opposed to FTC. I also think it allows for more flexible design choices, but that's a separate discussion that could easily be argued either way.

Sorry for the long post, I'll go back to keeping my rants to myself. And of course, everything I wrote is my own personal opinion on the topic.

-Nick

[Citrus Dad]

I like Nick's post. It's a nice summary of the differences.

I see the differences in this way:

FTC - focuses on an engineering solution working with a small team of individuals working with a limited budget.

FRC - a more expansive view that incorporates engineering with other socially-desirable activities including strategy development, teaming with other organizations and managing resources with a relatively large budget.

I'm not sure FIRST has entirely grasped the both implication and potential of the FRC program yet.

[gabrielau23]

Originally Posted by pwnageNick

I've been watching this thread, and I was going to just observe, but I decided I would throw my perspective in. I'm not going to comment or add on to anything else anyone has said.

...

Here's where I'll get blunt. Is FTC/VEX an inferior competition? Yes. It is. And I think we all know it is. If it wasn't then we wouldn't be having this conversation. It doesn't take a students educational experience as far. And if you want to talk about culture change, I've never seen someone look at an FTC/VEX robot, and audibly say wow unless it was expanding to be huge (*couch* *cough* Bowled Over *cough* *cough*). But when a random person or someone from a potential sponsor sees an FRC match in person, that makes them want to get involved. Just the way it is. Bigger is better for attracting people when it comes to competition robots driving around.

tl;dr

-Is FTC/VEX a fantastic tool that can help students learn and get engaged in STEM and prepare them for a career in some kind of engineering, etc.? Yes.

-Does FTC/VEX help better prepare students and set them up to succeed more in FRC? Yes.

-Can students learn as many skills in FTC/VEX as FRC? Depends on the resources of the FRC team, but in the high majority of cases: No.

-Is FTC/VEX an inferior competition to FRC? Yes.

-Is FTC/VEX more affordable/accessible/scale-able? Definitely


^^ That last point is what's important. The FRC teams out there who get a kitbot drive on the field with very little or nothing else on the robot perhaps should be competing in FTC/VEX because it would most likely fit their resource allotment better and would allow their students to learn more from the experience.

In addition to that, there are some FTC/VEX programs out there who have tens of thousands of dollars in their FTC/VEX programs, and at some point it could be smart to start an FRC team so that you can move kids through to FRC after a couple years of VEX to further expand their learning experience.

As a side note, I personally think that VEX is a better options for teams stretching resources as opposed to FTC. I also think it allows for more flexible design choices, but that's a separate discussion that could easily be argued either way.

Sorry for the long post, I'll go back to keeping my rants to myself. And of course, everything I wrote is my own personal opinion on the topic.

-Nick

Absolutely agreed with everything here.