Go to Post There are few times I sleep so soundly as I do after an FRC build season and regional. - JamesCH95 [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 16:33
Unsung FIRST Hero
Patrick Wang Patrick Wang is offline
Registered User
#0115 (MVRT Alumni)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Cupertino, CA
Posts: 128
Patrick Wang has a spectacular aura aboutPatrick Wang has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via AIM to Patrick Wang
A Change in this year's Spirit of FIRST?

I have grown up through High School in the FIRST program, and I have seen dramatic changes in its spirit and the feel of the competition since I was a freshmen.

In my 4th year in FIRST, I have noticed something different in the spirit of the newer teams, many of them seem not to see the true intent of FIRST.

I think this largely the result of the shortened kickoff, while Dean and Woodie made their speeches concerning FIRST yet again this year, it has changed greatly from those hour lectures of yesteryear.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed not having to sit through a 3 hour kickoff, but the only reason I could really make out Gracious Professionalism was because I have heard Dean and Woodie's speech in the past years.

It seems to me that the burden of bringing newer teams, (and even some members of older teams) to see the values of Gracious Professionalism, (namely in the threads discussing robots) lies more firmly with the veteran teams sharing their views of gracious professionalism.

Has anybody else noticed this shift in the nature of the people posting on the chiefdelphi boards (certainly not the whole FIRST community)? And can you see that perhaps the reduced emphasis this year on the true point of the competition may have resulted in such behavior?
__________________
Patrick Wang

WRRF
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 16:40
Dave_222's Avatar
Dave_222 Dave_222 is offline
I used to be cool.
AKA: Dave the Knaive
#0222 (Tigertrons)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Tunkhannock Pa
Posts: 565
Dave_222 will become famous soon enough
Send a message via ICQ to Dave_222 Send a message via AIM to Dave_222 Send a message via Yahoo to Dave_222
yes i agree and like you eluded too the job will lie in the example of vet teams to relay the purpose of first. I personally am not looking at this as a bad thing I am willing to accept the challenge as part of Dean's "homework"
__________________
"Get up and save yourself from youself."
Maynard

"Let me intorduce myself," the man said. "My name is Roosta, And this is my towel."
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 17:14
Jeff_Rice's Avatar
Jeff_Rice Jeff_Rice is offline
ElementisRegamusProelium
#1359
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Linn County
Posts: 283
Jeff_Rice will become famous soon enoughJeff_Rice will become famous soon enough
I think I know what you mean...

People trying to subvert the rules and such, all those discussions about using disable to control the robot during autonomous, or getting in those our robot is better than yours arguments.

It seems to me that g. p. is the same thing as common decency. You help other people, play by the rules, and compete in a sportsmanlike manner.
__________________
"He said my name is Private Andrew Malone
If you're reading this then I didn't make it home
But for every dream that's shattered another one comes true
This car was once a dream of mine now it belongs to you
And though you may take her and make her your own
You'll always be riding with Private Malone" David Ball, "Private Malone"
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 17:23
rees2001 rees2001 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Rees
FRC #0340 (Greater Rochester Robotics)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 802
rees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond repute
Patrick,
I agree,
Boastful, overconfident, arrogant, RUDE, disrespectful. These are the terms that come to mind when I read through some of these posts. I can’t remember when Dean said, “build a Battle-Bot & talk smack,” but he must have because that is what I seem to be reading.
Most people feel good about what they have done. That is the foundation of FIRST. I have no problem with people thinking or knowing their robot is better than somebody else’s. You are supposed to. Please just try to imagine your grandmother reading what you have to say. As my grandmother used to tell me, “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all.”
Please try & use constructive critisizim when looking at somebody else’s design.
As far as I can remember in my 4 years, nobody has gone undefeated in every match. Even last years National Finals went to 3 matches.
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 18:57
soezgg soezgg is offline
Senior Member
AKA: Harry Miller
#0639 (The Rude Awakening)
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Army
Posts: 119
soezgg can only hope to improve
Send a message via AIM to soezgg Send a message via Yahoo to soezgg
Boastful, overconfident, arrogant, RUDE, disrespectful.

I agree and I even take part of it.

Its called COMPETITION. Think about it.


stuff like that can still take a great part in gracious professionalism.

realize also, this is ON THE INTERENT. people can be more rude here than in real life because they dont directly affect them.

i can be a real ? online, because i dont have to look you in the face.

in real life however, im usually quite nicer.

but...anyway.

Last edited by Mike Martus : 23-02-2003 at 19:12.
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 19:14
Stephen Kowski's Avatar
Stephen Kowski Stephen Kowski is offline
BSEE, MSEE, JD
AKA: employed
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Saint Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,144
Stephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Stephen Kowski
really all that different?

I presonally haven't seen this great change in philosophy of veteran or rookie teams. 2001 people couldn't wait to tell you how fast they could balance two goals, but in reality some of it was true, but most was fiction. This is just one example I can think off of the top of my head.

Mainly I believe it is a lot of misinterpretation and mind games to try and get you hyped about a person's robot. The way I see it no one really knows anything yet unless they have been to a scrimmage, and even then nothing is set in stone. So are people talking "smack"? yes. Has anything ever really come of it in any year? not really.
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 19:31
Wayne C.'s Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Wayne C. Wayne C. is offline
hey- I think we did pretty good?
FRC #0025 (Raider Robotix)
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: North Brunswick, N.J.
Posts: 1,530
Wayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond repute
there has always been a lot of braggadocio surrounding the competitions. That's the result of lots of hard work and pride in accomplishment. As long as it is not degrading the efforts of others it is just talk.

The change I see is the move away from the competitions being a fun social event. No more giveaways, music, friday party- sounds like the fun is drained somehow. What will the losing teams get out of this year's events? At least if you lost in the past you still had fun with the friends you made on the way. I wonder what the 75% of the teams not winning will remember from this year's events? I hope it is positive.

I know our guys will have a good time. Hope you all do too.

WC


__________________
you want that robot to do what?

Raider Robotix- www.raiderrobotix.org
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 19:37
Unsung FIRST Hero
miketwalker miketwalker is offline
Robot Lifeguard
FRC #1902 (Exploding Bacon)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 878
miketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to miketwalker
I agree.

I personally have noticed that lots of people seem to be focusing on the "We're gonna beat you" aspect this year through posts and such. I mean, yes it is a competition... but I'm not there to win. If we win, that's great, but if not.... I learn from other teams for next year and in turn still win. I mean you go to a competition, and as a rookie I met TONS of people who I'll see again this year. The competition teaches you, and if you lose, you just simply cheer for the teams that one and say good job. Last year at nationals, we were in 42nd place in our division and we knew we were outta it, but we didnt complain or anything, we just shouted as loud as we could "WHO DAT BBAT?" I just think too many people are worried about dominating others and saying they're "better" which isn't what this is all about at all. I'm there to learn, have fun, and see the various ways everyone went. Then to cheer on EVERYONE. If a team breaks down, you go over to their pits and help them, not laugh and say "we rule". That's my 2 cents.
__________________
Chopsaw? Chopsaw.
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 19:49
f22flyboy's Avatar
f22flyboy f22flyboy is offline
Distributor of Mayhem
#0540 (Rhythmic Disturbance)
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 199
f22flyboy will become famous soon enoughf22flyboy will become famous soon enough
Well I'm prepared to be the scape-goat (or flame-goat) for Battlebots, so here's my opinion.

From what I've heard, although BB is a competition, there is a lot of "gracious professionalism" that goes on behind the scenes, and even in front of the cameras. It is a competition and the object is to win, but you don't win any more by obliterating your opponents bot after it has been disabled. Also, rumor has it that the same level of assistance, part sharing, etc. is found in the BB pits as the FIRST pits.

My definition of gracious professionalism is knocking someone down during a match, but being the first to help them up once the match is over.
__________________
Godwin Robotics Association- Rhythmic Disturbance

Team 540 Forums

FIRST Look... FIRST Shot... FIRST Kill.
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 20:21
Unsung FIRST Hero
miketwalker miketwalker is offline
Robot Lifeguard
FRC #1902 (Exploding Bacon)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 878
miketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to miketwalker
Quote:
Originally posted by f22flyboy
My definition of gracious professionalism is knocking someone down during a match, but being the first to help them up once the match is over.
Well said.
__________________
Chopsaw? Chopsaw.
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 21:20
Ken Leung's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Ken Leung Ken Leung is offline
Dare to Live!
FRC #0115 (Monta Vista Robotics Team)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Palo Alto, California
Posts: 2,390
Ken Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Ken Leung
it is our responsbility to teach the new kids about GP

This thread reminds me time this summer when I was completely silent and didn’t make any post on the CD forum, and a post I did about it. It’s buried in the forum some where, and it was so nicely called a “novel” by JosephM .

Anyway, here is some part of it:

I used to read threads, and usually ended up shaking my head from time to time thinking, “Why are people doing this?” At the end, after months of frustration and disappointment, I took the easy way out and ignored most parts.

But then I start thinking, how can I believe in the benefit of the forum when I don’t even go in there anymore? How can I recommend them to fellow FIRST participants when I don’t even want anything to do with those places anymore? As a mentor in FIRST, am I really doing others any good by introducing them into such a hostile environment where they only learn to talk the same way with the same attitude?


I remember the good old times when I was eager to go into the forum and see people talking about interesting issues. I was too afraid to post replies, and was silently reading posts after posts learning whatever I can to prepare myself to enter one of the most exciting places in FIRST community, arming myself with basic knowledge of just about everything, and making sure I sort out my own line of thinking/feeling before I form my voice. And it was a wonderful experience. I ended up posting 2nd most at the 2001 season, and made lots and lots of friends here and there online or at competition. I heard many similar comments from lots of those friends. And I thank all the other posters on the forum for showing me how wonderful the CD forum is.

But now… somehow, all of those seems to have faded away. Well, I guess I can’t say all, but definitely a lot of them.

I start thinking about the role I want to take in FIRST and in other places, and I remember how much fun it was to inspire people, and teach them new things. It was truly exciting when I show the students the competition, the robots, the forum and chatroom, and maybe other neat stuff in FIRST. I really believe education and inspiration is the path of life I want to take.

Believe it or not, when we register for this forum, and posted the first word in one of the forums, we took on a little of the responsibility of showing others what’s the right thing to say. Lots and lots of viewers who come in here to read the forum look up to us for good ideas and data, because when we started showing our voices in the FIRST community in the forum/chatroom, we became sort of a role model, for newer members to come in and see, what’s the proper way to have intellectual discussions about something we are really excited about. The newer members look at what’s posted/said in the forum/chatroom to see how people are supposed to expression opinions and communicate. In a way, we are all teachers from the beginning we stop being a reader and start being a poster.


So start posting and show a good example to others ;-). We have a job to do, if we want something to happen the way we want it to. I always though, “if you want something bad enough, you can work hard to make it happen.” Talk to people, have interesting discussions, show your voice in the good ways you are supposed to. Make an example, and start influencing and inspiring others. There are lots of teams out there waiting to benefit from the CD forum just the way we benefit when we started.

It is an important task we are taking on right now, whether you realize it or not. The subtle ways in which we express ourselves form a voice in the FIRST community that others look up to and learn from.

Its going to take a while… But, I really do hope we can restore this forum and the chat room to what they are supposed to be… Places for intelligent discussions about this competition, really good ways to meet others with similar passion, and a fun learning experience where we can learn, share, and inspire ourselves and others.

And that continue to be my wishes…

Please note that, it is not up to yourself and yourself only to make things better. After all, the forum and chat room are formed by many people when they wanted to share their experience with others. Not anyone of us can be expected to change the way everybody acts… But get this: if EVERYONE of us want it enough, it will happen.
__________________
Hardware Test Engineer supporting RE<C, Google.

1999-2001: Team 192 Gunn Robotics Team
2001-2002: Team 100, 192, 258, 419
2002-2004: Western Region Robotics Forum, Score Keeper @ Sac, Az, SVR, SC, CE, IRI, CalGames
2003-2004, 2006-2007: California Robot Games Manager
2008: MC in training @ Sac, CalGames
2009: Master of Ceremony @ Sac, CalGames
2010: GA in training @ SVR, Sac.
2010-2011: Mechanical Mentor, Team 115 MVRT
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 21:48
Amanda Morrison's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Amanda Morrison Amanda Morrison is offline
16 awesome years of FRC!
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,861
Amanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond repute
I agree fully.

Something has gone awry this year in FIRST. I think more teams are concerned with winning and their robot that they don't even stop to think about the kids on their team, or the learning experiences of others. While ChiefDelphi Forums have an incredible amount of information to pass along to teams, they have somehow been infused with comments that should never be said under the influence of the spirit of gracious professionalism (no fault of their own).

What went wrong? How can we stop this?
__________________
Director of Operations, VEX Robotics, Inc.
Alumna - Teams 71, 1020, 1720, 148
2002 World Champions (Team 71) | 2008 World Champions (Team 148)
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 21:53
Koko Ed's Avatar
Koko Ed Koko Ed is offline
Serial Volunteer
AKA: Ed Patterson
FRC #0191 (X-Cats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Rochester,NY
Posts: 22,941
Koko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond repute
The thing I find so ironic is everyone talks about how things have changed in FIRST and ever since I have been on these boards I always see poster listing in their sigs how their team did in what regional, what their seeding was, and how many awards they got.
So what is so different this year?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 21:59
DanL DanL is offline
Crusty Mentor
FRC #0097
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Somerville, MA
Posts: 682
DanL is just really niceDanL is just really niceDanL is just really niceDanL is just really niceDanL is just really nice
Send a message via AIM to DanL
Yeah, about a year ago, I posted something kinda like this (although in a completely unrelated thread).

Summarized, although not sounding as elitist (which I didn't mean):
  • FIRST wants what may be a contradictory set of goals: expand to every high school in the US, and still keep its unique flavor (epitomized by "gracious professionalism").
  • If you expand to every high school in the nation, you're going to bring in the bad as well as some good. The mere existence of this thread proves that despite Dean's and Woody's best efforts, this is unfortunately the case.
  • If you don't bring in new people, you become a exclusive society of elitists (think popular snobbish-society or ivy-leage-school stereotypes).

So, the question is this:
how do you strike a balance?


I think the problem is the veterans are looking for FIRST to be a utopia, while the word 'Utopia' literally means 'nowhere.'
__________________
Dan L
Team 97 Mentor
Software Engineer, Vecna Technologies
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-02-2003, 22:05
Ken Leung's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Ken Leung Ken Leung is offline
Dare to Live!
FRC #0115 (Monta Vista Robotics Team)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Palo Alto, California
Posts: 2,390
Ken Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Ken Leung
Quote:
Originally posted by amandabean
What went wrong? How can we stop this?
The best way isn't to say "no please don't do this anymore", but to set an example of what's right.

There are plenty of us making posts that say "this is what Gracious professionalism is all about", and "you shouldn't critize others needlessly" (Andy Baker write the best of them, in my opinion), but those post themselves doesn't teach others what's appropiate.

Some where along the line, we got tired of posting like the way we used to, and all the new members doesn't have anything to look up to. At the same time, a lot of old members either quit FIRST, or stop visiting the forum like they used to, which amplified the problem even more.

Anyway, done with analyzing the reason. Onward to the problem solving part.

As I said, the best way is still to set a good example of good posts. Whatever we say will teach the new members what's good and what isn't. Once they see a lot of good posts with interesting discussions challenging people to think and learn from each other, they will get addicted and will never turn away.


Replying to soezgg:

It is too bad that you cannot see beyond the COMPETITION part of FIRST, and understand some of the truely amazing thing that's going on. Over here at Bay Area in California, we have an organization where the teams come together as a group, and figure out what we can do to help each other out, and make the experience much more worth while.

All the WRRF teams got so much more out of it because they see pass the COMPETITION part you so dearly hold onto, and share and learn from each other. We hold workshops for all the teams about fundraising, drive train and motors, robot designs, team building, rookie advice, and we put together post season competitions. Can you say you've done similar things?

Also, I disagree that because this is the internet, you can disregard other's feelings and say whatever you feel like. This forum happens to be one of the most valuable part of FIRST, and if you don't feel like respecting that, then please post your comments else where.
__________________
Hardware Test Engineer supporting RE<C, Google.

1999-2001: Team 192 Gunn Robotics Team
2001-2002: Team 100, 192, 258, 419
2002-2004: Western Region Robotics Forum, Score Keeper @ Sac, Az, SVR, SC, CE, IRI, CalGames
2003-2004, 2006-2007: California Robot Games Manager
2008: MC in training @ Sac, CalGames
2009: Master of Ceremony @ Sac, CalGames
2010: GA in training @ SVR, Sac.
2010-2011: Mechanical Mentor, Team 115 MVRT
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How We Could've Changed the Culture But Didn't. Madison General Forum 44 04-02-2006 21:32
What changes to this year's game...? DougHogg General Forum 16 20-04-2003 15:35
Urgent...Modifying this years drill motors Mimi Brown Motors 17 07-01-2003 23:04
Annual Thread: Whats this years game going to be? team222badbrad General Forum 129 28-12-2002 14:38
10 years and still growing! archiver 2001 0 24-06-2002 03:35


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:33.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi