9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?

[Boe]

I just want to say that you guys did amazing at state and built a great bot that honestly more teams should have built something similar to.

I was the captain out on the field and made the call for the first alliance to pick 4778. You guys were next on our list but ultimately we went with stormbots because they had a consistent hot high goal auton and could truss or pass back to the hp depending on what our alliance needed.

[Jon Stratis]

I've seen it happen before, and I've seen teams that I've been sure would be playing sitting in the stands during elims. Scouting is a difficult task for everyone - you're attempting to gather imperfect information in order to make a decision that ultimately affects your ability to win the competition. Even the best scouting systems out there aren't perfect.

The State Championship this past weekend saw an incredibly even field during qualifications. From my view watching most of the matches, there weren't any robots that really stood out above the others, and there weren't any that were bad. Anyone could have been in any alliance during elims... at that point the scouters were making decisions based on very small differences.

Additionally, this game presents an interesting difference from previous games. Previously, you could more or less figure out who would be picked based on a simple point differential - each alliance would take the first available team who can either score the most points or prevent the other alliance from scoring the most. This year, there was a lot more strategy involved, looking for robots who could fill specific roles - in bounder, trusser, assister, scorer. It didn't pay to get two robots that were the best in one of those roles.

[Nick Lawrence]

One of the most famous ones I remember is 610 at FLR in 2009.

They were seeded 9th, and declined an invitation from an alliance. None of the top 8 picked each other after that, leaving 610 to sit out on Saturday afternoon.

Ouch.

-Nick

[TedG]

Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence

One of the most famous ones I remember is 610 at FLR in 2009.

They were seeded 9th, and declined an invitation from an alliance. None of the top 8 picked each other after that, leaving 610 to sit out on Saturday afternoon.

Ouch.

-Nick

I don't know what the rules were in 2009, but for atleast the last 4 years, if you are outside the top 8 seeded teams and decline an invitation, you're done anyway.

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by TedG

I don't know what the rules were in 2009, but for atleast the last 4 years, if you are outside the top 8 seeded teams and decline an invitation, you're done anyway.

Not if you get bumped into the top 8 by in-picking. It only prevents you from being picked, not picking.

Now I'm curious if a team in the top 8 or gets bumped into the top 8 can decline an alliance captain spot on the basis of a non-functioning robot (a reason you'd decline an invitation from outside the top 8 most of the time).

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by BigJ

Not if you get bumped into the top 8 by in-picking. It only prevents you from being picked, not picking.

Now I'm curious if a team in the top 8 or gets bumped into the top 8 can decline an alliance captain spot on the basis of a non-functioning robot (a reason you'd decline an invitation from outside the top 8 most of the time).

In 2011 at West Michigan, 2153 declined their bumped-up invitation to be #8 captain, IIRC, for traveling-home reasons. So, it's happened.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by BigJ

Now I'm curious if a team in the top 8 or gets bumped into the top 8 can decline an alliance captain spot on the basis of a non-functioning robot (a reason you'd decline an invitation from outside the top 8 most of the time).

Yes, it happened last year in Milwaukee. More Robotics broke and were asked to join the alliance. In one of the best declines I ever heard, the team rep explained the robot had a fault that could not be corrected in time and offered all of their scouting data to the alliance that asked them. I am very happy to know them and believe them to be a World Class Team for showing the ultimate in GP.

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Yes, it happened last year in Milwaukee. More Robotics broke and were asked to join the alliance. In one of the best declines I ever heard, the team rep explained the robot had a fault that could not be corrected in time and offered all of their scouting data to the alliance that asked them. I am very happy to know them and believe them to be a World Class Team for showing the ultimate in GP.

Oh yeah, I remember that.

I more meant like, say, 1675 is ranked 6th at a regional but knows their robot broke in the last match and is "unfixable" -- are they forced to remain an alliance captain and leave 2 unwitting alliance members to a backup bot? Or can they "graciously" step out of contention and have each other team move up a seed?

[Jon Stratis]

I can't find anything in the rules that lays out a process for an alliance captain to decline, BigJ. But one sure way to do it is to not be present for alliance selection!

A year ago at North Star I had a team pack up their pit and start to haul stuff out before alliance selection. One of my inspectors caught them when they were asking for the garage door to be opened so they could leave, and pulled me in to talk with them. The team was very upfront and had obviously spent some time thinking things through. They told me they were well aware of their robot's capabilities and they were positive they weren't going to be picked. They wanted to load up the truck and get started on the several hour drive home they had.

After a bit of back and forth, I asked them what seed they were. After all, a team seeded 60th who is positive they won't be picked and wants to leave before alliance selection could be seen as a gracious decline. But that's not where they were seeded. No, they were the 9th seed. Once I heard that, I ordered them back to their pit. I explained that I've seen enough alliance selection and enough matches to know that XXXX was going to pick YYYY, and they were going to be an alliance captain. Turns out, they captained the 7th place alliance.

I imagine that, if the team really had packed up and left, everyone would have shifted up and they essentially would have been skipped.

[Max Boord]

I remember at one of the east coast events teams in the top 8 were asked if they wanted to become an alliance captain.

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

I can't find anything in the rules that lays out a process for an alliance captain to decline, BigJ. But one sure way to do it is to not be present for alliance selection!

A year ago at North Star I had a team pack up their pit and start to haul stuff out before alliance selection. One of my inspectors caught them when they were asking for the garage door to be opened so they could leave, and pulled me in to talk with them. The team was very upfront and had obviously spent some time thinking things through. They told me they were well aware of their robot's capabilities and they were positive they weren't going to be picked. They wanted to load up the truck and get started on the several hour drive home they had.

After a bit of back and forth, I asked them what seed they were. After all, a team seeded 60th who is positive they won't be picked and wants to leave before alliance selection could be seen as a gracious decline. But that's not where they were seeded. No, they were the 9th seed. Once I heard that, I ordered them back to their pit. I explained that I've seen enough alliance selection and enough matches to know that XXXX was going to pick YYYY, and they were going to be an alliance captain. Turns out, they captained the 7th place alliance.

I imagine that, if the team really had packed up and left, everyone would have shifted up and they essentially would have been skipped.

+1 to ordering them back to be captain . How did they do in elims?

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by BigJ

Now I'm curious if a team in the top 8 or gets bumped into the top 8 can decline an alliance captain spot on the basis of a non-functioning robot (a reason you'd decline an invitation from outside the top 8 most of the time).

It happened a few years ago at another MI District event. The team had already qualified for State, and wanted to use the pit time. (Plus, it gave another team a chance to get points.) The scouting captain was on the sidelines with me in 9th or 10th and wondered if he could decline if he got moved up. Eventually he declined to be the captain the 7th alliance.

[Leo1oser]

Our team played on Newton this year, and finished 18th after losing a match to 1986 and 971 in the final qualification match. To our dismay, MARS was the highest seed (I think) left out of eliminations. I guess that had to do with a touch penalty or what role we could play (maybe we didn't show off our trussing abilities enough?), but the news left our team and head mentor (who had just spent three hours fixing our robot's transmissions ) Being left out of eliminations is tough.

[Jscout11]

At the Clifton MAR District, interpicking in the top 8 left the 8th seed vacant right as the 8th seed got to make their first selection. The spot should have been filled by the next highest ranked team, which at that point was Team 4035 at Rank 12.

However, 4035 was accidentally skipped over, and the next highest ranked team, Team 3340 at Rank 14, was called in to fill the 8th slot. After they made their first selection, the staff realized the mistake and had both 3340 and their selection sit back down. Luckily, all teams involved still did play in eliminations

Link

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Leo1oser

Our team played on Newton this year, and finished 18th after losing a match to 1986 and 971 in the final qualification match. To our dismay, MARS was the highest seed (I think) left out of eliminations. I guess that had to do with a touch penalty or what role we could play (maybe we didn't show off our trussing abilities enough?), but the news left our team and head mentor (who had just spent three hours fixing our robot's transmissions ) Being left out of eliminations is tough.

Don't get too discouraged -- worlds is a big place for 'skips' like this. We were the highest miss, 13th seed, on Newton 2012. It went up from there. MARS will be fine