Vertical Mill for FRC

[protoserge]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

We've had a similar experience.

Made a decent size metal router, fixed up a 2x2 wood router than 294 (thanks!) gave us years ago, and recently converting a full size knee mill.

I know you like your little machine, and your points are all valid... but I think everyone would agree that the biggest (And closest to full size machine) you can get, the better.

Certainly that machine versus no machine is AWESOME though.

Exactly. I don't think anyone will disagree about the Bridgeport being a better manual machine for the money. I think that the benchtop machines, which sometimes are the largest machine someone can realistically acquire, are not given much acceptance.

[HBarea]

We faced a similar decision last year, all the research pointed us to a Bridgeport but it was not possible at that point in time. One option was to wait to raise enough funds and have the space for a cheap used knee mill. We choose to get a Grizzly G1006 this allowed us to introduced our students to machining and bring in house the capability to make custom parts. A Year later I do not regret our decision. In time we will get a Bridgeport (a few years). We decided that a cheap Chinese machine now is better than a good machine in the future. Read other similar threads here. Keep us posted of what equipment you buy in the end. Good luck.

[Paul T.]

We picked up a used bridgeport for $700 it even came with a nice DRO. its in good condition (1/8 slop in x) they even threw in the vice when we told them were a first team. look on craigslist we had to drive an hour to get it but it was well worth it.

[vertigo]

Thanks for all of the great advice that has been provided in this thread. The consensus seems to be that it is very much worth spending the extra money to get a full size Bridgeport machine, which I definitely agree with. With a few changes and the addition of a 220V power source (or a converter) our shop could accommodate a full size machine. My main reasons for seeking out the Grizzly machines is the price. Our team has only been around for two years and is still trying to establish steady fundraising and team structure. Until that happens, I'm not super comfortable spending a large portion of our budget on a nice, full-size machine (especially when there are other tools that we need to acquire). I'm glad to hear that people have had some success with the G0704. I'm going to keep and eye on Craigslist and check around local tool shops to see if I stumble on a well priced full size mill, but I would like to have a machine in place before the Fall to begin training the students. Thanks again for the help!

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by vertigo

Thanks for all of the great advice that has been provided in this thread. The consensus seems to be that it is very much worth spending the extra money to get a full size Bridgeport machine, which I definitely agree with. With a few changes and the addition of a 220V power source (or a converter) our shop could accommodate a full size machine. My main reasons for seeking out the Grizzly machines is the price. Our team has only been around for two years and is still trying to establish steady fundraising and team structure. Until that happens, I'm not super comfortable spending a large portion of our budget on a nice, full-size machine (especially when there are other tools that we need to acquire). I'm glad to hear that people have had some success with the G0704. I'm going to keep and eye on Craigslist and check around local tool shops to see if I stumble on a well priced full size mill, but I would like to have a machine in place before the Fall to begin training the students. Thanks again for the help!

Get friendly with local machine shops and network. They will know other shops.

Most are happy to help once you get to know them. You could possibly get a machine for free!

[Mr. Mike]

Originally Posted by vertigo

Thanks for all of the great advice that has been provided in this thread. The consensus seems to be that it is very much worth spending the extra money to get a full size Bridgeport machine, which I definitely agree with. With a few changes and the addition of a 220V power source (or a converter) our shop could accommodate a full size machine. My main reasons for seeking out the Grizzly machines is the price. Our team has only been around for two years and is still trying to establish steady fundraising and team structure. Until that happens, I'm not super comfortable spending a large portion of our budget on a nice, full-size machine (especially when there are other tools that we need to acquire). I'm glad to hear that people have had some success with the G0704. I'm going to keep and eye on Craigslist and check around local tool shops to see if I stumble on a well priced full size mill, but I would like to have a machine in place before the Fall to begin training the students. Thanks again for the help!

Try contacting the National Tooling and Machining Association. They have a chapter in L.A. www.lantma.org, or San Diego http://www.ntmasandiegochapter.org/

They might be able to help out.

[Mark Sheridan]

I think equipment procurement will be a major topic for the OCRA meeting on July 19. I am looking at 3309 and 3476 wishlist and both are very long. I think everyone is orange county wants a knee mill. I almost got one last year for 3309 for free but we could not get a truck in time to move it. I bet if orange county teams put our heads together, we should be able to dig up a few knee mills, DROs, and perhaps a CNC conversion kit or two.

This would be a good time to start talking about trading parts. 3309 traded with 766 in the past.

Also 3309 and 3476 are both working of safety documents, I think that could be a good shared resource that all the orange county teams could work together on.

I think I will be going to the bonfire we could chat there too.

PM me your contact info and I will make sure your part of the orange county teams discussion on new equipment.

[vertigo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Mike

Try contacting the National Tooling and Machining Association. They have a chapter in L.A. www.lantma.org, or San Diego http://www.ntmasandiegochapter.org/

They might be able to help out.

Great idea! Thanks!

PM me your contact info and I will make sure your part of the orange county teams discussion on new equipment.

PM sent.

[Jay H 237]

Another vote for finding a Bridgeport, and if you do you'll become spoiled!

A Bridgeport was a staple of machine shops years ago, and still are in some cases for one off jobs, but with most stuff going CNC they are becoming easily available as shops upgrade if you look hard enough. I just got one donated (tax exempt 501c3) that was well taken care of and gone over once a year. It was no longer needed and the company was willing to take the tax write off, pic of it below after I unloaded it in it's new home. Look hard enough and get out the word you're looking for one and chances are you'll find one. Being maintained this particular one had little backlash and good ways. Takes a standard R8 collet, a complete set of collets was included too, in addition to being equipped with a DRO.

Depending on how you set up the motor this one is good from 208v 3ph to 480v 3ph.

The only cost I had was $210 for a roll back. The pallet and banding was free from work.

[vertigo]

Thanks again for all the advice in this thread. I wanted to necro it to provide an update. After taking stock of our budget for this year (trying to go to two regionals for the first time), the space available in our shop, and scouring Craigslist all summer, we have decided to go with the G704 from Grizzly. While it is certainly not a Bridgeport, I think having this will be better than having nothing at all. The fact that there are resources that describe how to convert it to a CNC is also a huge bonus.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Dril...th-Stand/G0704

Now for my next question. Bits and accessories! What mill bits would you recommend to start off with? Brands? Any additional accessories we should consider? Any good guides for general maintenance or best practices? Thanks again!

[asid61]

Originally Posted by vertigo

Thanks again for all the advice in this thread. I wanted to necro it to provide an update. After taking stock of our budget for this year (trying to go to two regionals for the first time), the space available in our shop, and scouring Craigslist all summer, we have decided to go with the G704 from Grizzly. While it is certainly not a Bridgeport, I think having this will be better than having nothing at all. The fact that there are resources that describe how to convert it to a CNC is also a huge bonus.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Dril...th-Stand/G0704

Now for my next question. Bits and accessories! What mill bits would you recommend to start off with? Brands? Any additional accessories we should consider? Any good guides for general maintenance or best practices? Thanks again!

You might regret the Grizzly in the future. I've found that being able to take large cuts, extra work envelope, and just the sheer size of a Bridgeport is hard to beat. Although recently I have been looking into horizontal mills as lathe/mill combos.

That being said, for tooling, you will want at least:
-3/16" end mill (for milling 10-32 and 1/4"-20 clearance slots)
-1/2" end mill(for general purpose milling)(get a double-ended one of these)
-3/4" (for making existing holes larger)
-Small boring head (for boring out holes for press fits)LMS has it
-R8 Collet set for 1/16", 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", and 3/4".
-Taps, for 4-40 through 1/4"-20 in all the normal imperial sizes. This depends on what your team does, but those are the ones I've used.
-Drill chuck for at least up to 3/8" drils (do not use this for endmills)
-Drill set. Numbers and fractionals at least, letter drills if you can get them. Buy shortish drills if you can, as you will probably rarely need a Jobbers size. I don't think in 3 years I've ever used anything longer than 2", and most of the time it's <= 1".
-Set of single-flue countersinks. Get 2 or 3 sizes. Fantastic for deburring holes quickly.
-1/8" thick set of parallels. You need several sizes.
-Vise. Get a quality vise, or at least one designed for machine work. A regular driling vise will not work. We have a vise with angles markings on its base, which is very useful.
-Deablow or soft face hammer to seat stock on the parallels.
-Other stuff that I've missed in this list.

Measuring tools are an entirely diferrent story. I'm going to list the ones I think you can get by on.

-6" calipers. Get good ones. Mitutoyo or Brown and Sharpe are good brands, but I prefer the former as they are consistently good across the board. Digital ones are good because you can reset the zero to whatever you like. Mitutoyo digital calipers are around $50 on ebay.
-12" ruler. Get one that has divisions in the 0.01" range, not a regular one. Better would be a 12" caliper.
-If you get a 36" ruler you can make side 2x1s for a WCD.
-Vise stop. Very useful to take stuff out for the vise to measure it.
-Small clamps. I'm partial to these, as I use them to clamp multiple plates together often, and they're strong. Other types will work.
-Edgefinder. Spend $15 on ebay and get yourself a Brown and Sharpe or other band-name version. These determine quite a bit of your tolerances.
-Test indicator. Get the type that looks like this. They're good for finding the center of holes and aligning the vise to the head.
-Electronic protractor. Good for making angles. It will read 90* when on a wall. You tilt it to find angles.
-Combination square.
-Scribe (Like a pointy metal pencil).
-Sharpies.
-Scientific calculator (just have one on hand. An iphone will do).

A DRO would be a great addition, but they are expensive. However, even a cheap DRO is better than none.

I have heard that 1-2-3 blocks are good to have, as well as v-blocks, but I have never used them for our parts. There was never any part big enough ot strange enough to justify using them. However, you might want to pick up a clamping set anyway, because your vise will likely be smaller than ours so you might need the clamps.
I used the above the most out off all the ~$6k of machining-specific tools the woodshop teacher has.
I will edit this later to include more stuff, but I think I got the basics.

[protoserge]

You won't want to run an end mill larger than 1/2". Anything bigger is highly likely to chatter and bog the motor down.

As for end mills? Get cheap two flute ones since they're going to be broken by the students most likely

Honestly, I think you've done your homework and walking in well educated.

I'm not sure about the boring head. I got a 3" indexable tooling set from Shars that is OK. It cuts well and leaves a nice surface finish; however, the adjustment screw has quite a bit of backlash that I want to try to resolve. I think LMS and Shars are made by the same manufacturer.

If you want to go CNC, you can most likely skip the DRO.

Get a good machining vise. The Shars ones have been said to be pretty good for the dollar, and for FRC applications "good" is usually good enough. For the G0704, a 4" vise is probably the right size unless you want to machine the end off of a 5" to clear the column on some cuts.

I really like my Glacern ER16 and ER25 tool holders, vises, and face mill. I bought them in November when everything is a lot cheaper (Black November sale).

Always try the sponsorship card when acquiring new hardware. We tried Grizzly, but I don't think they do donations or educational discounts of equipment. It doesn't hurt to ask.

Monster Jaws sells cheap ($80-85 for 10 pairs of 4") soft jaws that you might find useful later on.

And whatever you do, take that mill completely apart when you get it and clean and relubeeverything. You'll find out why as soon as you use it the first time after reassembly. You can tram it following the hossmachine guide on YouTube. It's pretty easy to do and you should be able to get it aligned very well.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by stinglikeabee

You won't want to run an end mill larger than 1/2". Anything bigger is highly likely to chatter and bog the motor down.

As for end mills? Get cheap two flute ones since they're going to be broken by the students most likely

I think the gears in the head/ belt will die before the end mills do if you crash. Those Grizzly mills have problems with that.

We use two flute end mills for aluminum because they can remove more metal due to the large flutes (according to my teacher). However, for such a small/ low HP mill four flute may be better for removal of metal. 4 flute is not that much more expensive than 2 flute.

[Mr. Mike]

The grizzly mill is what I consider a hobby grade machine. It will do a fine as long as it taken care of. Now with that said it can not take much abuse. Check with grizzly for the availability of repair parts.
Find recommended cutting conditions from the cutting tool manufacturer. Start with the lowest and be gentle with it.
WWW.use-enco.com and Harbor Freight.com will be good place to start for pricing when you are buying tooling for the machine.
I would not recommended converting it to a CNC. It just is not rigid enough to last very long. Keep looking for a deal or a sponsor for a knee mill with a CNC retrofit.
Just my .02

[James Tonthat]

Originally Posted by asid61

...Mitutoyo digital calipers are around $50 on ebay...

Your result may vary, I've heard of a lot of these being fake. Keep in mind a new set of Mitutoyo digital calipers go for around the $120 range for a 6" and closer to $190 for a 8".