LAS VEGAS REGIONAL... terminated?

[Mark Sheridan]

Originally Posted by JB987

Adam,
The best thing other teams can do to help us keep our regional is to send us some of your sponsors $$
Hey, if 2500 teams each sent $20 to Nevada FIRST we would be all set...kidding...sorta.

Seriously, our committee is working hard to get this possibly bad news out to our community and see if we can't shake some more financial support out of them. We haven't given up the fight yet...FIRST has been patient but reached a point where the loss of our regional and it's helpful role in offering additional capacity to CA and AZ teams (you would be amazed at the total number of teams left on the wait lists at so many of the area regionals including 10 left on ours). This is apparently no longer a mitigating concern to them since we have been told that there will be new regionals next year in CA (Ventura) and AZ (Phoenix).

This is sad news. LVR is my favorite regional. I personally would pay up to a extra $1000 to attend LVR. I think its that good. As for California teams, there was such a shortage to regional spots, there is no way for Ventura to make up for the california's need for an extra regional and the loss of LVR. Even if Ventura holds 60 teams, California looses 20 ish spots from LVR leaving only 40 new spots for California next year. To me that does not seem like a lot of space for FRC growth in california. I can think of 15 teams alone in So Cal that would like to attend a extra regional next year.

[JB987]

Originally Posted by Mark Sheridan

This is sad news. LVR is my favorite regional. I personally would pay up to a extra $1000 to attend LVR. I think its that good. As for California teams, there was such a shortage to regional spots, there is no way for Ventura to make up for the california's need for an extra regional and the loss of LVR. Even if Ventura holds 60 teams, California looses 20 ish spots from LVR leaving only 40 new spots for California next year. To me that does not seem like a lot of space for FRC growth in california. I can think of 15 teams alone in So Cal that would like to attend a extra regional next year.

Thanks for the supportive response, Mark. We agree we have something special here and that's why the fight to survive is on. Maybe if teams like yours, and Adam's and many others directly affected were to convey directly to Frank such well made arguments like yours here we might have a fighting chance.

[PayneTrain]

What really makes me uncomfortable is how this could be a slippery slope of just closing up shop for areas not living up to the satisfaction of HQ and leaving kids out in the cold. On top of that, the shuttering of a regional, especially one like Vegas, can negatively affect FRC across an entire multi-state region by stunting growth of its neighbors. I imagine what would happen if Regional Ops were to close a regional on the already cramped ast Coast because of sponsorship woes and the idea of threatening the existence of dozens of teams and potential of many more is not something that should be done without exhausting every available option. I've never been to Nevada but surely there are some options?

[DCA Fan]

Best of luck Joe. I'm very surprised that there isn't more sponsorship interest given the proximity of the event to all the hospitality companies, surely MGM or Caesar's could cough up what probably amounts to 10 minutes worth of earnings without much harm on the bottom line.

As for those questions about the CA districts, there's currently a lot of worry in the number of key volunteers that need to be trained in a short amount of time. The number of events that will need to go on every weekend is likely to burn out many volunteers, not to mention the amount of time off of work for everyone involved. In addition, while the Ventura regional will provide some relief to the already maxed out Los Angeles regional, it isn't enough for the quantity of teams in California that attempt multiple regionals, hence why Vegas tends to get a fairly large CA contingent.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

What really makes me uncomfortable is how this could be a slippery slope of just closing up shop for areas not living up to the satisfaction of HQ and leaving kids out in the cold.

So, what you're saying is that some regionals are too big to fail?

It's not "not living up to the satisfaction" it's "Not affordable". Huge distinction. One implies an arbitrary judgement, the other is a simple mathematical fact.

Not saying that LVR should end. Merely stating that pouring money into a project that shows no signs of becoming self sustaining is bad for building a sustainable business.*




* yes, FIRST needs to be a business. If Money Out > Money In we're all going to be in trouble soon.

[JB987]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

So, what you're saying is that some regionals are too big to fail?

It's not "not living up to the satisfaction" it's "Not affordable". Huge distinction. One implies an arbitrary judgement, the other is a simple mathematical fact.

Not saying that LVR should end. Merely stating that pouring money into a project that shows no signs of becoming self sustaining is bad for building a sustainable business.*




* yes, FIRST needs to be a business. If Money Out > Money In we're all going to be in trouble soon.

Your are right Andrew...the numbers from our regional suggest we are a good business risk. 43 teams at LVR were second or third event teams, contributing $172k to FIRST via registration, 8 teams were rookies contributing $48k before costs of KOP's deducted. If rookie KOP's cost FIRST even $3k then rookie contributed net $24k directly to FIRST plus the rest of the 43 teams $172k contributiions sent to FIRST totals +/- $196k. They kicked back around $30k I think. Leaves $166k in their pockets to service all of FIRST. Not a bad profit margin...

Regarding the largess of casinos and hotels...of course we approach them constantly but have never been able to get them to contribute a dime because every one of them channel their charity dollars into causes that help the down trodden and less fortunate residents of our area (more social good- will bang for the buck than helping to finance an event that serves well fed and educated students).

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

So, what you're saying is that some regionals are too big to fail?

It's not "not living up to the satisfaction" it's "Not affordable". Huge distinction. One implies an arbitrary judgement, the other is a simple mathematical fact.

Not saying that LVR should end. Merely stating that pouring money into a project that shows no signs of becoming self sustaining is bad for building a sustainable business.*




* yes, FIRST needs to be a business. If Money Out > Money In we're all going to be in trouble soon.

Too big to fail implies that this single regional would have a direct, immeadiate negative impact on FRC. If the LV RPC can close the gap in sponsorship dollars over the next two years and keep filling slots like it has been, it's no more or less viable than any other regional. I believe LVR seats above the average regional size, and on top of that the event likely counts for more "non-KOP" registrations (not rookie/1st event) than KOP registrations, which financially makes it more viable for HQ since they pocket all of that juicy registration coin. While I personally don't have the books for LVR in front of me, I gather that the event does or at least easily attain a favorable financial standing as a regional event.

It seems the real crux is keeping teams in the program. On one hand, if you can't keep teams sustainable outside of a precious few, maybe you need to look at a different strategy. On the other hand, we talk a lot about how difficult it is to bring back a team from a school that wasn't ready for an FRC team. Is LVR really at a point where you would rather have an exponentially more negative impact of removing an entire regional and its operations than try to make it work?

[apples000]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Too big to fail implies that this single regional would have a direct, immeadiate negative impact on FRC. If the LV RPC can close the gap in sponsorship dollars over the next two years and keep filling slots like it has been, it's no more or less viable than any other regional. I believe LVR seats above the average regional size, and on top of that the event likely counts for more "non-KOP" registrations (not rookie/1st event) than KOP registrations, which financially makes it more viable for HQ since they pocket all of that juicy registration coin. While I personally don't have the books for LVR in front of me, I gather that the event does or at least easily attain a favorable financial standing as a regional event.

It seems the real crux is keeping teams in the program. On one hand, if you can't keep teams sustainable outside of a precious few, maybe you need to look at a different strategy. On the other hand, we talk a lot about how difficult it is to bring back a team from a school that wasn't ready for an FRC team. Is LVR really at a point where you would rather have an exponentially more negative impact of removing an entire regional and its operations than try to make it work?

I agree with everything you've written. Keeping teams in is really important, and not all schools are ready for a team. Sure, LVR might not be profitable this year, but if FIRST truly believes that these regionals in 'less populated' areas cannot be sustainable, then we have a much bigger problem. I believe FIRST knows that eventually LVR will be a good thing, but they think using resources elsewhere will get more growth.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by apples000

I agree with everything you've written. Keeping teams in is really important, and not all schools are ready for a team. Sure, LVR might not be profitable this year, but if FIRST truly believes that these regionals in 'less populated' areas cannot be sustainable, then we have a much bigger problem. I believe FIRST knows that eventually LVR will be a good thing, but they think using resources elsewhere will get more growth.

Well it seems like LVR has had sponsorship issues for consecutive years for this to even be discussed. But removing the existence of an entire regional and its support staff (RD, Senior Mentor) is really, really drastic.

[Rangel]

Originally Posted by JB987

[/b]

Your are right Andrew...the numbers from our regional suggest we are a good business risk. 43 teams at LVR were second or third event teams, contributing $172k to FIRST via registration, 8 teams were rookies contributing $48k before costs of KOP's deducted. If rookie KOP's cost FIRST even $3k then rookie contributed net $24k directly to FIRST plus the rest of the 43 teams $172k contributiions sent to FIRST totals +/- $196k. They kicked back around $30k I think. Leaves $166k in their pockets to service all of FIRST. Not a bad profit margin...

Regarding the largess of casinos and hotels...of course we approach them constantly but have never been able to get them to contribute a dime because every one of them channel their charity dollars into causes that help the down trodden and less fortunate residents of our area (more social good- will bang for the buck than helping to finance an event that serves well fed and educated students).

Wait so FIRST is making a 166k profit off of LVR and they might shut it down? I'm not a buisness expert or anything but this doesn't seem like a good idea from any standpoint.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

Wait so FIRST is making a 166k profit off of LVR and they might shut it down? I'm not a buisness expert or anything but this doesn't seem like a good idea from any standpoint.

Keep in mind that very few, if any people in this thread know how HQ sees the situation. Speculation is just that: speculation.

My speculation would be that HQ sees terminating the regional as a worst-case scenario-- regardless of the financials. I'm sure every feasible effort will be made on the part of HQ and NVFIRST to continue the regional-- and seeing the enthusiasm some posting in this thread have for LVR gives me heart that it will continue.

Personally, LVR is on the list of regionals I hope to go to someday.

[rsisk]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

... But removing the existence of an entire regional and its support staff (RD, Senior Mentor) is really, really drastic.

Not sure anyone said the RD or Senior Mentor were being removed.

As part of a regional planning committee (or two) I can tell you it is really, really, really tough to come up with the dollars needed to keep a regional running. For example, most members of the IERPC are volunteers and have normal jobs in addition to trying to raise funds and I imagine its the same for LVRPC. Without LVR, California teams are going to have a hard time finding places for a second play, will definitely be spilling over to AZ, CO, UTAH.

Joe, I sure hope LVR can get the funds it needs and stay in business. We attended LVR for the first time this year and had a fantastic time. It is a great venue and very well run (drive thru load in, score! ample pit and spectator space, score! great crew running the event, score!)

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by rsisk

Not sure anyone said the RD or Senior Mentor were being removed.

Pardon me if I'm off-base here but I am under the impression that without a regional to run, there is no staff needed to run anything. I am not aware of a place where there are RDs and SM but no events tied to them.

[seg9585]

And here I was thinking how great Vegas would be to hold future FRC Championship events. Vegas has so much hotel capacity, such large convention centers and arenas, and is easily accessible by air from everywhere.

Vegas was our go-to as a second regional because all other SoCal regionals filled up immediately. The Santa Barbara Regional should ease that a little next year, but travel to SB is logistically equivalent at least from where my team is located in Orange County (still need a hotel, etc).
Another reason VEgas was special was it featured so many high-caliber teams. The winners or finalists of the LA, San Diego, Inland Empire, Arizona, and Utah Regionals were all present in Vegas this year!

[mwmac]

Joe, I am really saddened to hear that the situation you predicted at LVR is perhaps becoming a reality. It seems the Tators may have had their first and last visit to Vegas unless First sees the importance of maintaining a regional that provides playing opportunities for teams throughout the less densely populated areas of the intermountain west, (not to mention teams from Hawaii and beyond).

With the formation of the PNW district, the coming formation of the California district/s and the potential termination of the Las Vegas regional, the Tators choices for a second event will require driving to Denver (830 miles one way) Phoenix (until it goes districts, 907 miles one way) and Calgary (956 miles one way). First's motivation for implementing districts may be as a means of reducing costs per play for teams within district model areas but for teams in areas that do not have the population density to support a district model, our costs of competition in a second event are being raised substantially.