Image Discuss: Truck Town's Completed Robot

[DougHogg]

"Attach" per the American Heritage Dictionary online is

"1. To fasten, secure, or join: attached the wires to the post."

(See http://www.bartleby.com/61/73/A0507300.html)

Those arms don't look fastened to the midfield pipes.

"Support" per the American Heritage Dictionary online is

"1. To bear the weight of, especially from below."

(See http://www.bartleby.com/61/66/S0906600.html)

I don't see the pipes holding any of your weight.

(There are other definitions for both words, but I think those are the ones that apply to the context in the rules.)

Personally I think that you have come up with a brilliant solution to this year's competition. I have to admit to being a little annoyed--not with you--but with myself for not thinking of this possibility.

We thought that we had a real jump on the game by swinging our telescoping arm from the starting position to knock down the bins. You have given us a lot to think about.

Great job. Hopefully we will make it to the Nationals and be on your team.

[Rook]

I defended team 68 in the other thread, and I will do it here. There is no clear violation of the rules. I agree it is something that needs to be looked into by the judges. However, if the first in match it is decided that Team 68's arms are not illegal, then that ruling should apply for the entire competition.

Team 68's design is meant to contact the carpet and that is all. We all know that if a robot hits them, then the bar is going to back them up. It's the same thing though if one robot is trying to push a weaker robot out of the way. If the stronger robot backs the weaker one into the bar. The weaker robot isn't going to be DQ'd because their bot is taller than 14".

The game of Football is over 75 years and each year, they STILL argue over rules. A complicated game like FIRST is going to have these little gray areas. FIRST is especially vulnerable to this kind of thing because the game changes every year. As members of FIRST, we should expect that the officials will take every precaution so that there are no gray areas, but we also have to have a realistic and mature attitude about it.

FIRST is about pushing the envelope, and coming up with the best ideas and strategy to win. It's obvious that Team 68 put a lot of thought into this design, and I think they deserve to be allowed to use it.

[f22flyboy]

this is similar to the "entanglement" issue last year with the tether bots, flagboles, tape measures, etc. As long as the wings aren't pushed against the bars, it should be legal.

[Jnadke]

Originally posted by Rook
Team 68's design is meant to contact the carpet and that is all. We all know that if a robot hits them, then the bar is going to back them up. It's the same thing though if one robot is trying to push a weaker robot out of the way. If the stronger robot backs the weaker one into the bar. The weaker robot isn't going to be DQ'd because their bot is taller than 14".

Your analogy is severely flawed.

What if a robot is pushing their arms on the HDPE? There's no reason for the limbo blockers to be there in this case, but it will put them at a severe advantage because their arms can't move (let's forget about the thick treads... pretend the TechnoKats are pushing against them). We all know the arms will react with the playing field in TWO places, one for each arm. Therefore, they are reacting with multiple playing field surfaces, which is a clear violation of the rules.

Remember, there are 2 arms on the robot, so both are going to react with the field, that's what I'm trying to point out. It violates the "pushing against multiple surfaces" rule.

If they only had one arm, it wouldn't be so bad, because you could easily use it as a lever and rotate them out of the way. In their current form, it looks as if it would make them nearly impassible.



I'm not saying their mechanism is definately illegal, because I don't know how exactly it's going to work. If it will slide into the bar, then it can be considered illegal. However, if they are able to hold their ground and not contact the bar... so many "what ifs" that you can't decide until the first match.

[Mark Garver]

Originally posted by Jnadke
Your analogy is severely flawed.

What if a robot is pushing their arms on the HDPE? There's no reason for the limbo blockers to be there in this case, but it will put them at a severe advantage because their arms can't move (let's forget about the thick treads... pretend the TechnoKats are pushing against them). We all know the arms will react with the playing field in TWO places, one for each arm. Therefore, they are reacting with multiple playing field surfaces, which is a clear violation of the rules.

Remember, there are 2 arms on the robot, so both are going to react with the field, that's what I'm trying to point out. It violates the "pushing against multiple surfaces" rule.

I believe if you read your rules again you will find that you are mistaken when they discuss touching multiple surfaces. How about a robot that is both on the wire mess and the carpet? Touching more than one playing field surface. There is a ruling on multiple surfaces, I will give you that. I am not in front of a set of rules however I believe the way the rules are stated is that you may not touch more than one surface of the midfield barrier. You can argue how to define a surface however since the pipe is round, if we were pushed into the bar, the arm would be tangent to the round bar and this is what I would define as one surface. You can only argue this point if you blam us for what other robots do to us. Read this set of rules carefully and I think you will find what I am getting at.

[Gadget470]

The bickering on the legality of 68's bot needs to stop.

I've said it before in another thread.

We are at a fork in the dicussion. One path is legal, the other is illegal. Nobody knows which path is which. Of course 68 is going to say it's legal, it's how they interpretted the rules. Of course some other people are going to say it's illegal, it's how they interpretted the rules.

NOBODY KNOWS IF IT IS LEGAL OR NOT. Nobody. Not the people who built it, not the people who are talking about it. You don't know because the rules are vague. Multiple Surfaces? HDPE, Carpet, Midfield Barrier, possibly Mesh (if arms get bent)... ok, does the rules state WHICH surfaces you can't touch?

My understanding was that you couldn't hold the HDPE and touch the lexan on both sides. I may be wrong, I don't have the rules in front of me, nor do I care.

Fact is, 68 made a great robot. No matter how much you argue, your say doesn't matter. Your being people For and Against it. It's up to the inspectors and referee's at competition.

[Jnadke]

Originally posted by Mark G
I believe if you read your rules again you will find that you are mistaken when they discuss touching multiple surfaces.

GM31
It is also unacceptable to grab onto or push hard enough against multiple surfaces simultaneously in order to wedge and make immovable a robot.

I'm not going to attempt to interpret it or be the interpreter anymore. All I can have are opinions, that's it.


As I said before, there are too many "what ifs". It all depends on how you handle your robot and depends on how familiar the referees are with the rules. Some of these referees have done this for years. Some aren't as experienced and are unfamiliar with the rules. It also depends on their interpretation of the rule. It's impossible to tell what your robot will do from pictures, all we can do is try to imagine what it would do. The only people are you guys that know what it will do. Hopefully it has been thought out enough.


No matter what, it's an ingenious design, and for sure Team 68 thought "outside the box". Hopefully they didn't think too far outside the box, but it was very nicely executed. The judging on this robot will either make it or break it. I have to say, good job team 68.




On a side note, did you guys build two robots like you did last year? That'd be quite a battle at IRI....

[Matt Attallah]

Heh. Nice robot. Hope to be your allys and your opposing force. It would be fun to see what we can come up with/aginst eachother...

[Mark Garver]

On a side note, did you guys build two robots like you did last year? That'd be quite a battle at IRI....

Yes, two completed robots with enough spare parts to more than likely build at least one or two more full robots, with spare parts to spare. I agree, it should be interesting if Lady Thunder is up to the challenge again this year. I think that the two robots paired together would be a cool site, since they will be going after different obectives. You will have to wait and see what I am getting at in this regard.

Thank you for stating the rule. Like I said, I wasn't infront of my rulebook. I agree it will be up to the judges and how they decide to rule on whether we are making ourselves immovable or whether the team pushing is at fault. Only time will tell...

[Rook]

[[[GM31
It is also unacceptable to grab onto or push hard enough against multiple surfaces simultaneously in order to wedge and make immovable a robot.]]]

If I were a judge, I know I am not, but IF I were, I would interpret that rule as such.

From the photo, Team 68 does not appear to be grabbing or pushing the mid field bar. They are only positioning themselves around it. It's a very clever idea. Also, it remains to be seen how "immovable" they will be in this situation. So since 68 isn't actively attaching themselves to the bar or even pushing on it with their own power, and if they are still movable then they are not in violation of GM31.



Also, I am not "bickering" over the rule. I am discussing the rule with other people who feel like discussing the rule back with me. Why is this bad? Nobody is calling anybody names. We know we aren't going to make the final decision. We are just having a civil discussion.

[Jnadke]

Just a suggestion, but how about bending the pipes that fit over the midfield barrier at a 45 degree angle? This way, when a team pushes against you directly, your arms will automatically lift/slide off the bar because they are slanted. In this fashion, a team still cannot limbo under the bar because they would be riding up your 45 degree slant. Except... this option wouldn't really work if the third stage is powered by a motor... which it doesn't look like it is. It looks like it pivots freely in which case this would work.


In fact, it's even better than the 90 degree bar because they have nothing to push against. As soon as they hit the slant they would just ride up it.

[ggoldman]

I have a quick question for the truck town team...

How do you rotate those wings out. I cant make out what motors..if any..u use from the picture.

Also, what will you guys do if you dont make it to the ramp? What else can your bot do?

Thanks

Gabe G.
Mentor team 384
Engineering student at VCU

[Jnadke]

Originally posted by ggoldman
I have a quick question for the truck town team...

How do you rotate those wings out. I cant make out what motors..if any..u use from the picture.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...pagenu mber=1


Take a look at that thread. If you take a look at the 2nd image on the page (titled "Image 2 of 4"), you can see a black motor on the arm joint (2nd stage of the arm). Looks like they are probabaly using the Denso Window motors, because they would need 2. It can't be the Bosch Van Door motor because we only get to use 1 of them. The CIM motors would be overkill for this application. It makes sense that the window motors would be used because of their worm gear and you wouldn't want the secondary arm to lift up if you want to transfer weight.

If you look at the rear of the robot in that picture, you can see another black motor (unless that's poorly blended background). My guess is that this would be the Van Door Motor and it controls the wings together. This would be practical, because it can be backdriven and you wouldn't want to damage the wings. It also has lots of torque.

The 3rd stage looks as if it swings freely.

[WakeZero]

First of all, great robot!

I look forward to seeing you guys at the AZ regional, it is looking to be one HELL of a competition, lol. I think our robots may be butting heads on more than one occasion, every match will be exciting though

[KyleGilbert45]

This is a great looking bot, as always.... I can see them totally dominating their matches but oh the carnage if someone decides to play dirty with the ramming....but hey..all in good fun..I'm really looking forward to seeing you guys in competition...