[FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

And on the topic of practice, Frank, why the heck do we close the field SO early on practice day? It kills us for a perfectly good Field to be sitting right there, and not being able to use it past 4PM or whatever it is when practice day goes until 8PM. We pay an aweful lot to just stand around and look at an empty field Thursday night.

I couldn't possibly agree more. The 10-4 practice schedule is horrendous and teams are less functional and competitive as a direct result. Even in the rare case where we're basically ready to compete as soon as our pit is set up and we've passed inspection, we can maybe get one match in. If we delay full inspection until after 4, then we're contributing to the end of day rush that absolutely exhausts inspectors. If we do it the way that seems right, get inspection taken care of before practice, we're lucky to get a single match in, and then the practice field is already full for the next day and a half!!

12-6 for a practice schedule is the exact same amount of work for volunteers working the field and far more useful to the teams competing. I've never been to an FRC competition where I saw more than 4 robots on the practice field before noon. Rather than have teams who are ready to practice twiddle their thumbs the last 4 hours the pits are open, let's give them at least some field time. Please.

Honestly if getting fully inspected is an issue, make the field open even later and require inspection. Whatever, anything for later field time works for me.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I couldn't possibly agree more. The 10-4 practice schedule is horrendous and teams are less functional and competitive as a direct result. Even in the rare case where we're basically ready to compete as soon as our pit is set up and we've passed inspection, we can maybe get one match in. If we delay full inspection until after 4, then we're contributing to the end of day rush that absolutely exhausts inspectors. If we do it the way that seems right, get inspection taken care of before practice, we're lucky to get a single match in, and then the practice field is already full for the next day and a half!!

12-6 for a practice schedule is the exact same amount of work for volunteers working the field and far more useful to the teams competing. I've never been to an FRC competition where I saw more than 4 robots on the practice field before noon. Rather than have teams who are ready to practice twiddle their thumbs the last 4 hours the pits are open, let's give them at least some field time. Please.

Honestly if getting fully inspected is an issue, make the field open even later and require inspection. Whatever, anything for later field time works for me.

I completely agree with this. How often do we see the first 5 practices matches go by with 0 robots on the field. That isn't doing anybody any good, you're not getting to test the field and time is just being wasted. I think pushing the practice schedule back 2 hours is a great suggestion. Even an hour to get some teams inspected/set up would be better than the schedule now.

[yarden.saa]

I am going to give you another perspective;
Since I am in FIRST (starting my 6th year in FRC) the Israeli Regional was 4 days but not really. There is a hour (in some years it was 45 minutes) to load in your stuff. Teams who did not attend the load in has the same amount of time to load in in the next day before everyone can enter the pit area. In both times of load in the teams can take only 5 people including adults to one of the load in times.
Why do they do it?
It's simple, in my opinion, hundreds of people and tons of stuff can be a big mess up. In this configuration, teams can carry their totes/tool and etc... SAFELY!
There are 2 loading times so in average there are half of the teams in load in and the inspectors can handle the bag&tag process without running a marathon.
If teams can't/are not able to attend the load in day, they don't miss a thing.
In my team we prefer to go to the load in day because it is easier to us to transport all of our stuff although we are 45 minutes drive from the venue. The students love to get another day (hour) of the regional spirits!
In one year we could not attend the load in and we didn't felt that we miss something!

edit:
I forgot something important. My team transport our stuff with 2-3 cars. Imagine 50 teams =100-150 cars looking for the closest parking space to the pit area.The load in day makes it less problematic...

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

Well said Allen!

I still think the issue of working on the robot can be easily worked around: one volunteer writes down the tag number for each team's bag as it walks in the door during load in and does a quick bag inspection. This is just like we've always done it and it can be done by one inspector on the first night. Thursday morning when the entire inspection staff is there goes around to verify the same tag is on the bag and the bag is still intact. This is not hard to implement.

If we really allow teams to get to work on their robots straight off the bat on Thursday morning you will see inspections start sooner, more teams will be able to practice, keep the field open for longer on Thursday, and the level of competition at events will increase as well. This benefits a lot of teams!

Thursday morning is when us LRI's train the inspectors. I usually have 2-3 inspectors who I'm confident know what they're doing taking care of Bag and Tag stuff, while all the other inspectors are huddled up with me being trained on what to look for - I can't afford to have all my inspectors checking tags on robots that were already loaded in, and helping other teams load in... we wouldn't be able to get to the training until later, and that would push back when we could start inspecting robots.

From my experience, setting up the pit is not the reason we have trouble getting everyone inspected. With a few exceptions, almost every pit I've seen can be set up in 15 mins or less. The issue with inspections are teams that show up late, teams that haven't finished building their robot, veteran teams that are too self-assured and just put it off because they can and teams that are focused on functionality (usually programming).

I know I've seen my own team work on autonomous programming until 4PM before they've finally gotten sick of me asking when they're going to get inspected and they actually start their inspection. It's not a question of teams not having enough time, and honestly... if we let teams set up earlier it won't help with inspections - work expands to fill available time. It's a question of priorities, and teams mistakenly see other items as being more important than passing inspection.

[sanddrag]

To further reinforce the argument, most trade shows have at least a full half day of load-in and set up time for the vendors before anyone from the public ever sets foot in the place. They are not setting up their booths when the doors open to the public on the first day.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Thursday morning is when us LRI's train the inspectors. I usually have 2-3 inspectors who I'm confident know what they're doing taking care of Bag and Tag stuff, while all the other inspectors are huddled up with me being trained on what to look for - I can't afford to have all my inspectors checking tags on robots that were already loaded in, and helping other teams load in... we wouldn't be able to get to the training until later, and that would push back when we could start inspecting robots.

From my experience, setting up the pit is not the reason we have trouble getting everyone inspected. With a few exceptions, almost every pit I've seen can be set up in 15 mins or less. The issue with inspections are teams that show up late, teams that haven't finished building their robot, veteran teams that are too self-assured and just put it off because they can and teams that are focused on functionality (usually programming).

I know I've seen my own team work on autonomous programming until 4PM before they've finally gotten sick of me asking when they're going to get inspected and they actually start their inspection. It's not a question of teams not having enough time, and honestly... if we let teams set up earlier it won't help with inspections - work expands to fill available time. It's a question of priorities, and teams mistakenly see other items as being more important than passing inspection.

I agree, these suggestion probably won't help inspection and that's not the goal. Forcing a full inspection to practice after 4pm might help inspection but again not the point of these changes. The goal should be to put a better product out on the field and in the pits to inspire our communities and change the culture.

Also can we just stop checking bag and tag at this point. If people wanted to cheat they would cheat and there is little we can do about it other than building a culture that has higher standards than that. We aren't finding and pushing the people that are cheating. We are punishing teams that honestly make a mistake with some artificial time penalty of having to get a few signatures and a stern talking to. Why do we even bother? Who does this process help? We have the ability to be a different program. We have the opportunity to set higher standards of trust and respect among competitors and checking bag and tag doesn't help do that.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Thursday morning is when us LRI's train the inspectors. I usually have 2-3 inspectors who I'm confident know what they're doing taking care of Bag and Tag stuff, while all the other inspectors are huddled up with me being trained on what to look for - I can't afford to have all my inspectors checking tags on robots that were already loaded in, and helping other teams load in... we wouldn't be able to get to the training until later, and that would push back when we could start inspecting robots.

From my experience, setting up the pit is not the reason we have trouble getting everyone inspected. With a few exceptions, almost every pit I've seen can be set up in 15 mins or less. The issue with inspections are teams that show up late, teams that haven't finished building their robot, veteran teams that are too self-assured and just put it off because they can and teams that are focused on functionality (usually programming).

I know I've seen my own team work on autonomous programming until 4PM before they've finally gotten sick of me asking when they're going to get inspected and they actually start their inspection. It's not a question of teams not having enough time, and honestly... if we let teams set up earlier it won't help with inspections - work expands to fill available time. It's a question of priorities, and teams mistakenly see other items as being more important than passing inspection.

Thanks for you insight as an LRI. I agree teams all too often will not prioritize getting inspected (we make that our highest priority). Deciding to delay opening the practice field until 12pm-1pm can drastically help this. Matches start at 10am and once they do its all teams will focus on saying "The field is open till 4 and we can get inspected then" because most venues stay open til 8pm. Run the practice field from 12pm/1pm to 7pm during the hours that teams need it. Yes it means the field volunteers need to stay late but I see not reason why the field crew would need to report first thing in the morning. Let them sleep in a few hours if they feel the field is ready to go from the night before.

Someone I realized that was interesting is that technically we did experience what people are suggesting in this thread at our District Championship. Wednesday night was originally supposed to be load in to your pits and leave but it was changed to match other districts as load in started at 5:30pm and teams were allowed to load in, setup their pits, and get inspected with 5 team members. Inspectors encouraged all teams to setup their pits first before starting inspections and by the end of the night a good amount of teams were inspected. Most teams came in just to setup their pits and get their robots ready for the next morning and everyone came in at varying times through the evening but most teams were present during the first hour.

What I did remember was it was a very calm, quiet evening and the next morning inspections resumed and practice matches started.

I know inspections on Wednesday night is too much to start at the regional level but still a lot of teams opted to come in, setup their pits, and return in the morning to work on their robots.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

Also can we just stop checking bag and tag at this point. If people wanted to cheat they would cheat and there is little we can do about it other than building a culture that has higher standards than that. We aren't finding and pushing the people that are cheating. We are punishing teams that honestly make a mistake with some artificial time penalty of having to get a few signatures and a stern talking to. Why do we even bother? Who does this process help? We have the ability to be a different program. We have the opportunity to set higher standards of trust and respect among competitors and checking bag and tag doesn't help do that.

I agree for the most part... but I did have a team last year up in Duluth who took an unbag period (the kind we give to teams going to district events) the week before. Honest mistake by the team, but completely not legal. In situations like that, the imposed time penalty - the amount of time the robot had been unbagged for, which I think was 4 hours - was necessary, appropriate, and quickly agreed to by all parties (the team, myself, Big Al, FTA and head ref). IMO, it's situations like that which provide a context and importance for all teams who see it, and legitimize the process. At least with checking the forms teams know we're looking at it (and I often chat with the team while doing so, if they're around). If we don't check the forms, then there's no penalty for cheating, and teams could very well start to get a lot looser with it, knowing there's no penalty.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

We don't have this in districts anymore but I will chime in that under the regional system this really should be considered.

It really wasn't worth the time to drive 25 minutes to the venue, spend 10 minutes unloading, and then drive 25 minutes home to spend 10 minutes the next morning clearing the pit again and in everyone's way.

We DO have this in our districts (MAR). Our DCMP (which is kind of a hike for most teams) is a load-in-only, no-setup thing on Wednesday night. Even just moving things off our carts and onto a logical place on our pit floor got us yelled at by volunteers. Not cool - not to mention that wasn't at all worth the 2.5 hour drive.

It's so insanely unsafe. 1923's pit this year was right near the loading dock, and partially blocking the hallway where inspections were, so we couldn't safely unpack our pit until every.single.truck. had been unloaded into the venue. Even then, it was a huge hassle with volunteers/other teams yelling at us for blocking their way to the inspectors (which wasn't even our fault, that's just where they put our pit!).

I think as long as the robot stays in the bag until Thursday morning, then setting up the pit should be fair game. It's not giving people extra early time to work on their robot, it's making it easier on the teams that have to load-in on Thursday morning by not having the aisles (as) full of other-team's-stuff.

This is largely a regional-level issue, but some help/recommendations from HQ wouldn't hurt. I think commenting on Frank's Blog with some suggestions/concerns is the right way to go. We know FRC reads Chief, but we should still lay it out on an official channel.

[thatprogrammer]

I agree with libby on unloading. As for practice fields, I do feel that something like requiring a full inspection prior to being allowed to play on the practice field the first day of comp should be implemented. Touching on a similar issue, anyone else got yelled at by volunteers for having a pit crew during eliminations? If an issue like this occurs, I wonder how something like setting up pits would be handled. Would we still see volunteers not knowing about certain rules, and affecting teams in the process?

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Libby K

We DO have this in our districts (MAR). Our DCMP (which is kind of a hike for most teams) is a load-in-only, no-setup thing on Wednesday night. Even just moving things off our carts and onto a logical place on our pit floor got us yelled at by volunteers. Not cool - not to mention that wasn't at all worth the 2.5 hour drive.

It's so insanely unsafe. 1923's pit this year was right near the loading dock, and partially blocking the hallway where inspections were, so we couldn't safely unpack our pit until every.single.truck. had been unloaded into the venue. Even then, it was a huge hassle with volunteers/other teams yelling at us for blocking their way to the inspectors (which wasn't even our fault, that's just where they put our pit!).

I think as long as the robot stays in the bag until Thursday morning, then setting up the pit should be fair game. It's not giving people extra early time to work on their robot, it's making it easier on the teams that have to load-in on Thursday morning by not having the aisles (as) full of other-team's-stuff.

This is largely a regional-level issue, but some help/recommendations from HQ wouldn't hurt. I think commenting on Frank's Blog with some suggestions/concerns is the right way to go. We know FRC reads Chief, but we should still lay it out on an official channel.

Not to be harsh, but maybe that's a problem with pit design. Our team can unload and setup our pit without stepping outside of it.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

Not to be harsh, but maybe that's a problem with pit design. Our team can unload and setup our pit without stepping outside of it.

Oh, I'm certainly not saying our pit is perfect, but the fact is that only so many people-and-robot-and-boxes-of-stuff can fit in an 8x8 (10x10 if you're lucky) space. Gotta drop stuff in on Wednesday night, make the boxes/carts all fit in the space, and then bring it all out of 'storage' to place it in the right spots/set up our vertical displays Thursday morning.

It doesn't make a lot of sense compared to coming in Wednesday night, setting up the pit as it's loaded in, and then keeping the bagged robot on display in the middle, ready for unbag & inspection when we get in Thursday.

[Mr V]

One reason that you can't allow pit set up on load in night is that not all venues have a load in night and that even applies to district events. As Frank mentioned in the blog post the only real change that was announced is that those venues that have a load in night will now show up as a "4 day" event on the schedule rather than the typical listing of 3 days.

[AlexD744]

Originally Posted by thatprogrammer

I agree with libby on unloading. As for practice fields, I do feel that something like requiring a full inspection prior to being allowed to play on the practice field the first day of comp should be implemented. Touching on a similar issue, anyone else got yelled at by volunteers for having a pit crew during eliminations? If an issue like this occurs, I wonder how something like setting up pits would be handled. Would we still see volunteers not knowing about certain rules, and affecting teams in the process?

Where did the pit crew incident occur? Orlando allows a small pit and pit crew behind the curtain, but South Florida just has teams use their normal pit since they're already so close to the field... and i believe that's a regional to regional decision.

Edit: I just looked it up and it seems that it's not a regional decision, but a manual enforced rule that teams may have up to three 'pit crew' members (5.4.5). Doesn't exactly define the parameters of where/what those members can do, but it seems I was mistaken. Sorry!

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by thatprogrammer

anyone else got yelled at by volunteers for having a pit crew during eliminations?

Yes. I've had to pull out the manual multiple times.