[FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days

[AdamHeard]

It's very true that you get what you encourage.

The current practice field model inspires many teams to put of inspection.

They know the field closes at 4, and they likely won't get many practice matches. They hurry to pass a brief safety inspection, practice and then go to inspection at 4.

My team is guilty of this, among many others.

As a coach and inspector for many seasons (often at the same event), it's not shocking to me that this occurs. Teams are simply reacting to the constraints given to them in the most optimal fashion they can.

If the practice field started later and ran later, as well as had a cutoff (lets say 3pm) that you can't play past if you're not fully inspected, this issue would improve.

Better access to the practice matches is better for all parties involved. Obviously the teams and direct spectators benefit, but also the event itself. Presumably most events need to fundraise and have sponsors at the event, I've been to TOO many regionals where matches 1-3 are god awful embarassing but the same teams are substantially better in match 10+. This is because they missed the 4pm cutoff for practice, and their first match was their practice match! These are the matches sponsors are most likely to see first, and make a first impression from.

[DampRobot]

Thanks for the great suggestions Sanddrag. Making those changes would bring a lot of sanity to (and increase the level of competition at) FRC events.

The suggestions in this thread led me to reflect on something that has been bothering me for a long time. Wednesday night load in and inspections are two of many times that I feel bring an adversarial feel to the relationship between volunteers and teams. Almost every time I leave an FRC regional, I feel frustrated by volunteers that seem to enjoy enforcing arbitrary rules that hurt teams rather than help make sure the event run smoothly. Perhaps it's the rules, perhaps it's who's managing them, perhaps it's just the personalities of the volunteers themselves, but whatever it is, it needs to change. In my experience, most teams now feel like volunteers are roadblocks in the way to success rather than partners in running a safe, fun and fair event. This not only degrades the teams experience (which cost them several thousand dollars), but also creates a culture where skirting the rules is considered the norm.

Before you all jump down my throat, I'd like to say that I understand that these wonderful events could not be run without volunteers, and that I've met many respectful, responsible and prudent volunteers that have greatly enhanced my FRC experience. I'm thankful for their commitment and sacrifice. And yes, I understand that the volunteers have had long days, and are under stress. But at almost every event I go to, there seem to be a few volunteers that either enjoy jerking people around because they can or who get a kick out of enforcing arbitrary rules.

Another suggestion: could we not have music on Thursdays? I really don't need to have Miley Cyrus blasted at me while working on the robot. Given the safety culture at FIRST events, I'm surprised this hasn't been stopped already, as being exposed to that many decibels for that long is a serious auditory safety hazard.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

Thanks for the great suggestions Sanddrag. Making those changes would bring a lot of sanity to (and increase the level of competition at) FRC events.

The suggestions in this thread led me to reflect on something that has been bothering me for a long time. Wednesday night load in and inspections are two of many times that I feel bring an adversarial feel to the relationship between volunteers and teams. Almost every time I leave an FRC regional, I feel frustrated by volunteers that seem to enjoy enforcing arbitrary rules that hurt teams rather than help make sure the event run smoothly. Perhaps it's the rules, perhaps it's who's managing them, perhaps it's just the personalities of the volunteers themselves, but whatever it is, it needs to change. In my experience, most teams now feel like volunteers are roadblocks in the way to success rather than partners in running a safe, fun and fair event. This not only degrades the teams experience (which cost them several thousand dollars), but also creates a culture where skirting the rules is considered the norm.

What specific 'things' are you referring to in this regard?

[sanddrag]

DampRobot, beautifully articulated. I couldn't have said it better myself. I want to like the volunteers, I really do, and most times I do, but not always. The 'arbitrary' nature of certain rules ( and the sometimes ruthless enforcement of said arbitrary rules) really is the element that bugs us logical thinking engineer types, always searching for optimization, efficiency, and an answer to "why?". In some cases, it does become a competition of who can " play" the rules the best.

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

Not to be harsh, but maybe that's a problem with pit design. Our team can unload and setup our pit without stepping outside of it.

If 973 rolls in their Super Pit and pops a couple latches and is ready to compete or I make 14 trips carrying in cardboard boxes and plastic crates and unpacking it all, what's the difference?

I'll tell you the difference: Thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours. I don't have the funds nor time to make the pit area you describe. Your team figured it out. Good for you. Even with our sponsors-plastered vinyl-wrapped trailer, team-owned tow vehicle and 14 years experience, we still have not been able to make a nice looking and functional pit area that sets up quick, and comparatively we're at a disadvantage to those who have.

*Disclaimer
And I don't mean this post to reflect negatively on 973 in any way, quite on the contrary. I'm just completely envious of their pit. It's a masterpiece. They saw a problem and solved it in magnificent fashion, and I wish I could say we've done the same. And before Adam says it, yes, rather than mentioning what I don't have, I should work harder to get what I want. .

Realistically though, resources are not infinite. There are limits to what teams can do, and we shouldn't have to jump through ridiculous hoops (**cough** practice bot after bagging) for the 80th percentile teams to bridge that huge performance gap to becoming 90th percentile teams.

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by Steven Donow

What specific 'things' are you referring to in this regard?

Yelling at us during Wednesday load in for trivial things the volunteers saw as setting up the pit. Yelling at us for taking the robot off the field when it didn't fit with their inefficient plan for match reset (even though no one else was ready to bring their robot on the field, we were supposed to wait for all the robots to come on before taking our robot off). Yelling at us for being too early to queuing. Yelling at us for being too fast/too slow in moving on/off the practice field. Yelling at us for trying to stay in the pits during opening ceremonies. Yelling at us for charging our tanks in queuing. Yelling at us for standing or walking in the wrong place. Sometimes, I've got the impression that they're yelling at us just because they can.

I'm sure I could think of more instances with time. This is just a list of some of the things I've experienced myself; I've heard of a lot of other stuff (including some bizarre allegations of semi-predatory inspections) which I've chosen not to list here.

Another disclaimer: the type of volunteers I'm describing are a small minority of the volunteer pool, a group which on the whole I've found to be gracious, kind, and extremely competent. On the other hand, at almost every event I've gone to, there's been multiple incidents of the type listed above.

I guess I'm just letting off steam, but that's the problem as I see it.

[EricH]

Folks, if you have an issue with a particular volunteer, you do have some recourse to get that particular volunteer to "play nice".

First, figure out who is that volunteer's "boss". Inspector being a problem? Ask for the LRI. Referee? See that ref in the yellow shirt. Field reset? Supervisor. Lead Queue. FTA. If all else fails, track down the regional director and see if he can help track down the volunteer coordinator. State your complaint clearly and calmly. The lead or VC can then get the volunteer's side of the story and move them as appropriate/possible. (Or come back to you and explain--a little more professionally--why the volunteer isn't playing nice. I seem to remember an incident years ago where a team left a cart out of their pit in a hazardous area. Safety judges caused the team some consternation by removing their cart to an out-of-the-way area but returned it with a bit of a warning when the team asked about it.)

Second, I believe Pit Admin routinely carries incident reporting forms. If you can't find the appropriate person(s) to talk to, ask for one, fill it out, and I'm pretty sure that someone will be in contact.


If you've got a lot of stuff to bring in and set up, you might consider investing in a rolling tote rack, with locking wheels. That might make life a LOT easier in terms of moving things around (particularly when moving them to put floor/robot in). More wheels = more maneuverability/easier moving, ya know. A quick look at McMaster shows items of that nature ranging from $200 to $1K or so, depending on model, construction, and how many addons you opt for. AndyMark also sells some material that can be used to build a custom unit, though that might be a bit more expensive and take some careful planning. (Trust me, that sort of stuff can hold a lot of weight. Just check the bolts once in a while.)


Food for thought, as well: How many regional champions do you see that take an hour to set up their pit/need the load-in time as setup time?

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by EricH

Food for thought, as well: How many regional champions do you see that take an hour to set up their pit/need the load-in time as setup time?

I agree with most of your post but you have to remember teams have different goals. We're constantly battling internally to decide if it's better to bring everything that any team could possibly need or just the stuff we know we will need. It normally falls somewhere in the middle for us but sometimes it saddens me when I know we left something at home that another team could really use that day.

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

Yelling at us during Wednesday load in for trivial things the volunteers saw as setting up the pit. Yelling at us for taking the robot off the field when it didn't fit with their inefficient plan for match reset (even though no one else was ready to bring their robot on the field, we were supposed to wait for all the robots to come on before taking our robot off). Yelling at us for being too early to queuing. Yelling at us for being too fast/too slow in moving on/off the practice field. Yelling at us for trying to stay in the pits during opening ceremonies. Yelling at us for charging our tanks in queuing. Yelling at us for standing or walking in the wrong place. Sometimes, I've got the impression that they're yelling at us just because they can.

Dare I speculate that the yelling might be lesser if the music volume was lower? (although the energy level of FRC events does have an allure that VRC events don't)

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by EricH

If you've got a lot of stuff to bring in and set up, you might consider investing in a rolling tote rack, with locking wheels. That might make life a LOT easier in terms of moving things around (particularly when moving them to put floor/robot in). More wheels = more maneuverability/easier moving, ya know. A quick look at McMaster shows items of that nature ranging from $200 to $1K or so, depending on model, construction, and how many addons you opt for. AndyMark also sells some material that can be used to build a custom unit, though that might be a bit more expensive and take some careful planning. (Trust me, that sort of stuff can hold a lot of weight. Just check the bolts once in a while.)


Food for thought, as well: How many regional champions do you see that take an hour to set up their pit/need the load-in time as setup time?

Something we've struggled with from the start is that we've never had a trailer to bring our equipment to events. Everything we take has to fit in the back of a minivan or my 15 passenger van (with the seats out). It still takes a good amount of time to empty the van, take it to the pit, and setup since the shelving has to be broken down. Whatever few items aren't on wheels already typically fits on two dollies filled with totes or brought in by hand.

"Roll in" pits have always been out of our reach and probably will be until we can get a trailer but something we borrowed from a sponsor for Championships this year was an awesome find! You can buy it here from Tractor Supply Co. for $149. This setup only comes with one shelf but we had two for St. Louis. We were able to fit everything for our pit on the cart for load in and it integrated very well with our pit providing ample storage above and below plus a very sturdy work table. It breaks down into 6 easy to transport pieces and setups up in seconds. Highly recommended for pits.

[notmattlythgoe]

If 973 rolls in their Super Pit and pops a couple latches and is ready to compete or I make 14 trips carrying in cardboard boxes and plastic crates and unpacking it all, what's the difference?

I'll tell you the difference: Thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours. I don't have the funds nor time to make the pit area you describe. Your team figured it out. Good for you. Even with our sponsors-plastered vinyl-wrapped trailer, team-owned tow vehicle and 14 years experience, we still have not been able to make a nice looking and functional pit area that sets up quick, and comparatively we're at a disadvantage to those who have.

973's amazing pit is unattainable by most teams, including ours. My point wasn't to go spend thousands of dollars to make a pit like theirs, my point was the exact opposite. I see too many teams at events that have to pull everything out of their pit so they can set up their decorative walls and all their extra stuff every year. This is what creates the unsafe situations and cause the blockage, not the rules against setting up your pit on Wednesday. For reference, our pit is a roll in tool chest, a battery cart made from wood, an 80/20 roll in parts shelf, and an 80/20 bench topper that we carry in and put on the table. All of the 80/20 stuff was made from left overs from previous build seasons. Everything else comes in 2-3 crates that are put under the table.

Something we've struggled with from the start is that we've never had a trailer to bring our equipment to events. Everything we take has to fit in the back of a minivan or my 15 passenger van (with the seats out). It still takes a good amount of time to empty the van, take it to the pit, and setup since the shelving has to be broken down. Whatever few items aren't on wheels already typically fits on two dollies filled with totes or brought in by hand.

We actually rent a U-Haul covered trailer every year for both Regionals. It costs about $125 for the 4 days of rental for each trip. We decided it was more cost efficient than buying a trailer and paying for the upkeep for it.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

973's amazing pit is unattainable by most teams, including ours. My point wasn't to go spend thousands of dollars to make a pit like theirs, my point was the exact opposite. I see too many teams at events that have to pull everything out of their pit so they can set up their decorative walls and all their extra stuff every year. This is what creates the unsafe situations and cause the blockage, not the rules against setting up your pit on Wednesday. For reference, our pit is a roll in tool chest, a battery cart made from wood, an 80/20 roll in parts shelf, and an 80/20 bench topper that we carry in and put on the table. All of the 80/20 stuff was made from left overs from previous build seasons. Everything else comes in 2-3 crates that are put under the table.



We actually rent a U-Haul covered trailer every year for both Regionals. It costs about $125 for the 4 days of rental for each trip. We decided it was more cost efficient than buying a trailer and paying for the upkeep for it.

I know of a few trailers we can borrow but part two is getting the vehicle to tow said trailer of equipment.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

I know of a few trailers we can borrow but part two is getting the vehicle to tow said trailer of equipment.

Very true. That tends to be the more expensive part We are lucky that I and a couple of other people on the team have vehicles that can tow the trailer. We usually get a smaller trailer that a Ford Ranger can tow.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

*Disclaimer
And I don't mean this post to reflect negatively on 973 in any way, quite on the contrary. I'm just completely envious of their pit. It's a masterpiece. They saw a problem and solved it in magnificent fashion, and I wish I could say we've done the same. And before Adam says it, yes, rather than mentioning what I don't have, I should work harder to get what I want. .

I'll only point out that in terms of people, funds and equipment 696 has a good deal more resources

[MrTechCenter]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

I'll only point out that in terms of people, funds and equipment 696 has a good deal more resources

Adam, 973's roll-out pit inspired a lot of teams this year. Even my team is planning on building one for the next competition season.