Pit work during ceremonies

[BBray_T1296]

The rule on tinted safety glasses is so people can see your eyes. Not entirely sure how that makes things better, but basically any kind of glasses that makes seeing your eyes very possible is OK.

[cadandcookies]

To play a little devil's advocate: where in the rules does it guarantee that you can be in the pit during ceremonies? Yes, it looks like there's a "If you're in the pits, these are the rules," but I don't see anything guaranteeing that you can be in the pit. If somebody does see something with that guarantee, it has not been posted here.

Then it would indeed be up to the regional staff to decide whether being in the pits is appropriate-- though I would agree that there aren't all that many reasons not to allow work during ceremonies. Then again, I've seen significantly more malicious "ignoring" of the rules at events than clearing the pits (though I think I've covered those grievances elsewhere).

[Bryan Herbst]

I'm in favor of getting teams out of pits for opening ceremonies.

There's a lot of recognition that happens at the opening ceremonies- frequently community leaders show up to congratulate the students and it's an opportunity to recognize the volunteers (and introduce the students to some of the important ones). Planning committees spend a lot of time and energy coordinating these, so I don't have a problem giving them a half an hour of my day to relax and enjoy the ceremony.

The ceremonies are also an excellent opportunity to excite the students and get them engaged in the competition. For new students, it makes them aware of how big the competitions can be, and introduces them to the competition format. We also all are aware how stressful practice day can be, so it's a good opportunity to step back and take in the competition for a moment.

FIRST is also trying to make competitions similar to traditional sports competitions in many respects. When was the last time you saw members of a football or hockey team working out in the back room during the opening ceremony? Sure that might be a "better" use of their time, but I doubt many players would even consider it.

I do see exceptions being made every now and then for teams that are in desperate need of that time for one reason or another (perhaps their robot caught fire or they haven't passed inspection and are in the first match), and that's fine.

On a somewhat related note, I wish there was a way to make closing ceremonies mandatory. I understand some teams have a long drive, but they should stick around to support their colleagues. Plus it's awkward when a team wins an award but has already left.

[FrankJ]

It seems they largely cleared the pits at worlds during opening ceremonies?

Peachtree we cleared the pits with the exception of teams with major inspection issues.

[EricH]

I have one suggestion. If you do have people working in your pit (quietly, of course) during ceremonies, make sure that none of them happens to be the mentor your team nominated for WFA.

It's a little tough having to "drag" said mentor out of the pit and wait for him to show up on field. Personal experience.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by EricH

I have one suggestion. If you do have people working in your pit (quietly, of course) during ceremonies, make sure that none of them happens to be the mentor your team nominated for WFA.

WFA nominees are very frequently the mentors most likely to require dragging out of the pit. Sometimes, they must be dragged out of another team's pit. This can happen any time that the pits are being closed -- whether for ceremonies or at the end of the day.

Inspired people are just like that, there is nothing you can do to stop them. Thank goodness.

[treffk]

Originally Posted by EricH

Check the FRC Safety Manual. Certain colors are perfectly fine (as I recall, it's amber, blue, and one other, I want to say red) but anything else (like reflective) is out. Not sure why, but that's the way it is.

It's clear, blue, amber and yellow that are allowed according to the manual as long as they are non-reflective. Amber is the only color I have not bought for my team. We only had colored glasses one year which is where we ran into the blue being slightly too dark and not being able to see our pupils.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

I'm all for being respectful during ceremonies. I encourage my team to attend and listen to the guest speakers and take in the "show" part of the event. BUT, as others have stated, this is a competition and the teams also want to put on the best "show" that they can as well, and that requires machines working at full capacity.

Friday morning, MOST teams should be ready to go. There may be a few stragglers for inspection, but the majority of teams got inspected on Thursday and have had ample time to get the machine up to speed for Friday morning.

My problem is with Saturday morning. Quite often events run late on Friday. Closing ceremonies start very quickly after the last match. Pits close soon after that. It is very possible to be in one of the last matches on Friday and then be in one of the first few matches on Saturday. When the pits get closed for ceremonies, a machine that requires a good bit of maintenance after a brutal day of qualifying (like we saw so often this year) is inaccessible for about an hour between the two ceremonies, or more after you consider the volunteers trying to get everyone to leave on Friday night and the congestion of getting in on Saturday morning. This leads to robots that aren't ready for Saturday, and the competition devolves into 2v3 or worse with robots limping around because there was no time to fix. No one wants to see that, and we pay good money to be able to participate, so we want to be at our best.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Everyone,
The LRI at your event knows what teams are under a crunch based on their ability to be inspected or compete in one of the early matches. Those teams are usually given the ability to stay and work to insure all teams have a full alliance when they compete.
That said, local and Champs event planners spend a great deal of time trying to get important people to opening ceremonies or to speak at these events. The desire is to get movers and shakers to recognize what we already know to be true. As such, a maximum number of participants carries more weight with these people. Also, if you took some critical time out of your day to speak at a high school robotics event, you expect that the attendees would show you some respect and listen to what you have to say. If you missed opening ceremonies at Champs, you missed a double amputee tell you about the challenges he has overcome and the upbeat outlook he has on your future. If you missed opening at Midwest, you missed listening to the Turkish national anthem sung by the students who traveled thousands of miles to attend in Chicago.

[Brandon Holley]

Most of the argument to keep the pits clear during ceremonies boils down to 2 items: 1. Keep noise to a minimum while people are speaking and 2. Pack the stands to show the VIPs how enthusiastic the crowd is. Both valid points.

I was the event chair for the Northeastern District Event this year and was able to see both sides of the fence (team perspective and event chair perspective). Honestly though, there seems to be a very reasonable compromise (which is partially outlined in the rules). No power tools or loud working (hammering, robot operation, etc). No more than X people TOTAL left in the pits per team (3-4 sounds reasonable).

I instructed my volunteers to encourage people to leave the pit and attend ceremonies, but explicitly instructed them to not attempt to 'kick' anyone out of the pit. To my knowledge, no team left a dozen people in the pit, or attempted to fire up a dremel and grind something off their robot. Teams who felt they needed to work on their robots were able to do so (btw this should be something an individual team decides, not a volunteer), and the crowd for ceremonies was full and energetic.

A team is perfectly within their right to work on their robots during ceremonies as outlined in the rule quoted by Aren. At the end of the day- why put the rule in the rulebook if its not meant to be the guide to event to event consistency?

-Brando

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

A team is perfectly within their right to work on their robots during ceremonies as outlined in the rule quoted by Aren. At the end of the day- why put the rule in the rulebook if its not meant to be the guide to event to event consistency?

Please note that rule only applies if the pits are open. If an event determines specific times that the pits are closed (for example, during opening/closing ceremonies), then the pits are closed. Many volunteers want to see the ceremonies, but we can't if we're stuck back in the pits ensuring the safety of everyone there.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Please note that rule only applies if the pits are open. If an event determines specific times that the pits are closed (for example, during opening/closing ceremonies), then the pits are closed. Many volunteers want to see the ceremonies, but we can't if we're stuck back in the pits ensuring the safety of everyone there.

I guess for me the ultimate goal should be just creating a pleasant and consistent experience event to event. This will help greatly with the tensions that can arise with team expectations and event expectations not being in the same place. If every event is (very close to) the same, then everyone can be on the same page with expectations, but thats certainly not the case as it is now.

Why put specific criteria in verbiage for the rules with a header of "DURING CEREMONIES" that specifies how to handle national anthems if the pits are closed? To me, its an event circumventing the rules, which goes back to my above point of creating a consistent experience for all teams in all locations.

Just my 2 cents on the manner as someone with perspective on both sides of the fence.

-Brando

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Please note that rule only applies if the pits are open. If an event determines specific times that the pits are closed (for example, during opening/closing ceremonies), then the pits are closed. Many volunteers want to see the ceremonies, but we can't if we're stuck back in the pits ensuring the safety of everyone there.

I have a big problem with this, the manual clearly states rules for people in the pits during ceremonies, meaning it is not against the rules to be in the pits, thus they should be open at ALL competitions. I am going to address this and several other comments below PLEASE NOTE these are my feelings and are not meant as a personal attack on anyone just me stating things:

At the 2010 Florida Regional (Now Orlando Regional), my final competition as a student, we had a brutal schedule, and a sub par robot. When awards ceremonies came on Friday as de facto team captain I made the decision that the rest of the seniors (4 of them) who wanted to work on the robot could but the rest of the team was to be in the stands. We wound up winning the Website award, while walking down I grabbed one of our rookies and told them to go to the pit to get he rest of our team for the picture. Why am I telling this? One of those seniors was not only our lead mechanic, but one of only 2 people to work on the Website in attendance, so he missed walking down to the applause and getting the trophy but we made sure he was in the picture from the event. When I talked to him about later he said something that stuck with me, he was working on this robot for the kids in the stands who were going to be around after us so they could see what we could do with hardwork, was he upset that he couldn't go down to the fan fare and the shaking of hands, yes but it would be worth it down the line.

After 4 build seasons on a team, getting no accolades from FIRST, he received one that really only he worked on to get, and he couldn't receive it, and he wasn't upset by it. Volunteers make the decision to volunteer, that means a time commitment to what you are doing, that means missing speeches, or awards, heck as a mentor I missed Dean attending Orlando in 2013 because when he was in the pits, we were queuing for a match, and when he went out to make a speech I had to rush back to the pits to do an emergency repair because I didn't want our students to miss what he was going to say. As adults, whether we be parents mentors volunteers coaches or teachers, we make sacrifices of our time, energy, and even happiness for our teams or even the community as a whole, because it is all worth it to see the looks on the faces of the students when they win a match, or get an award, or even just get the robot to finally move on the field.

If there are people who are speaking at these events who are upset that not everyone is out in the stands to hear them, then they don't get what we are trying to do here, if we could inspire people by talking to them, then we wouldn't need FIRST.

Sorry for the long rant but seriously guys remember we are doing this for the students, the students worked on this robot for 6 weeks or more, let them do what they feel they need to, and let the teams decide what that is.

*steps off of soapbox*

[Bryan Herbst]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

Teams who felt they needed to work on their robots were able to do so (btw this should be something an individual team decides, not a volunteer), and the crowd for ceremonies was full and energetic.

Now we run into the issue of what constitutes a need to work on the robot. For some teams it is obvious- maybe their robot isn't moving. However, many teams also see other "needs." Maybe my robot is already the best robot at the regional, but I "need" to tweak the shooter arm a little bit to ensure I got from getting 95% of the shots to 100% of the shots. Is this really a need though? Should I skip the opening ceremonies to do this?

I'm fine with letting teams who actually have a need sticking around to work on their robot, but allowing the teams to determine if there is a need is essentially the same as just letting everyone stay back in the pit anyway.

Originally Posted by MARS_James

Sorry for the long rant but seriously guys remember we are doing this for the students, the students worked on this robot for 6 weeks or more, let them do what they feel they need to, and let the teams decide what that is.

Many of those volunteers who would like to clear the pits for opening ceremonies don't just want to view the ceremonies for the sake of viewing the ceremonies. Many of those volunteers are also mentors for teams and want to be there to celebrate, congratulate, and recognize students from their team and from other teams.

We will never get to a point where we can pull all of the volunteers from the pits due to safety concerns, but if we can get 95% of the teams out of the pits, the vast majority of volunteers in the pits can attend opening ceremonies.

I'm also not convinced that the rules for people being in the pits means that everyone can stay in the pits. As another user posted earlier, I interpret that as being "if you absolutely need to be in the pits, here are the rules." I think it's a good question for Frank.

[FrankJ]

Do realize the people putting on the event have a lot of leeway in interpreting the rules. They are also the final interpreter of the rules for their event.