Pit work during ceremonies

[waialua359]

Rules are rules.
Until Aren pointed out the rule from the manual, I was unaware you could still be in the pit.
After doing soo many different regionals and events, I have yet to attend one recently that had teams continue working in the pit during opening ceremonies.

Whatever FIRST allows, we will comply. However, given the chance to stay in the pits, most times I'd rather do that.
There is always something you can discuss/check/work on in the pits.

[scca229]

Regarding the "closing" of the pits during the ceremonies, I look at it not only as the aforementioned respect for the speakers and recipients, but also as a time for everyone to take a break from the robot itself and take in the atmosphere of how incredible it is what you are actually doing. You are competing with 140lb ROBOTS that YOU built! Take the 1/2 hour to clear the head, stop thrashing and enjoy the company of a few thousand of your peers that have a LOT in common with you. Make friends. You never know, some could become lifelong.

I am pursuing becoming an FTA not only because I enjoy the technology, atmosphere and inner workings of the events, but also due to the mantra that I have running through my head at every event that I have worked:

These kids shouldn't really have to know how hard it is to put an event on until after they are through their Participant phase and enter their Mentor phase (and hopefully Volunteer phase as well). They will find out soon enough.

I have been an FTAA 3 times (hopefully I can remove that last A next year) along with an event as an Inspector. Seeing the amount of dedication that the Volunteers (Key, Lead, Eye Protection Handout...take your pick) have for making the event go off is amazing. The planning for the next years event begins pretty much when the field is being packed up into the truck to head to the next venue (and sometimes even before that).

Think back to your events and try to remember when you didn't see the Key Volunteers either on-station or rushing around. They are pretty much on the job from a few hours before the venue opens each day through a few hours after Pits close trying to grab a bite to eat when they can (or being forced to eat by other Volunteers that notice you haven't eaten anything...Thanks Guys!). Sometimes the ceremonies are the only time certain Volunteer positions can realistically take a break.

I know that as FTAA during the Las Vegas Regional this year my Body Bug reported that I covered about 55 miles, about 95% of that in the space of the field and immediate surrounding, from Wednesday morning at field assembly through Saturday night when the back of the truck closed after packing the field into it. Some friends and family even mentioned not seeing me move that much, or that fast, in a long time when they were watching the streaming feed.

Working an event is easily the most exhausting thing I have ever done...and I love it and wouldn't miss it for the world. My wife has accepted the fact that she is now a Robotics Widow and that I am pretty much useless the day after an event wraps up.

See you from the other side of the glass in 2015!

[AllenGregoryIV]

Whenever I am at event I try to remind people of the rule that allows people to stay in the pits. Rarely is this ever abused to have entire teams crowding in their pits. People making lots of noise and things can be asked politely to quite down and they have always complied in my experience.

I truly believe that this needs to be set one way or the other. No one should have to guess how much time they are going to have to make a repair or get some tasks accomplished. Either we allow a few team members in the pit and hold events to that or officially close the pits and make it illegal for teams to be doing work. I really don't like the latter because it would be harder for me to get teams inspected but if anyone is allowed to work, everyone should be allowed to work. Isn't the whole point of our current bag system an attempt to keep build time equal yet event volunteers are allowed to decide which teams get more time to work on their robot. Again I understand why we do this and most teams won't complain for giving teams that need it more time to get through inspection, but it just seems simple enough to me to allow all teams to continue to work and put the best product on the field possible. Again within a reasonable limit.

[EricH]

A proposal:

The rule should be amended to clarify, something on the order of:

"[TXYZ] During opening and closing ceremonies, teams may work on their robots, with the following restrictions:
--No more than 6 team members in the pit.
--No use of power tools.
--Other noisy operations to be kept to a minimum--this potentially includes but is not limited to robot operations and hand sawing.

In the event that a team does not follow the above restrictions, event staff may request that the entire team leave the pit area.

Teams are encouraged to have their entire team attend the ceremonies as a team if at all possible.

[TABC] TXYZ may be suspended for an event if the Regional Director, FTA, and other staff as appropriate determine that having teams working will provide a distraction from the ceremonies at a certain venue. If this determination is reached, all teams must be out of the pit during ceremonies. In the interest of fairness, all teams must be informed of the restriction as soon as possible. Teams that have yet to pass inspection and have a match within the first ten matches of competition may apply through the Lead Inspector to work in or near the machine shop or other out-of-pit location for the duration of the ceremonies, under the restrictions outlined in TXYZ."


The trick with the second part is that it allows teams that really need to work a chance to try to get some working time, but they have to find a place that won't disturb the ceremonies. If you're "I have to get this automode fine-tuned right now" then you probably won't be given clearance--but you can also make arrangements to not go very far and be back quickly (and there's a chance of not being allowed to do that in the first place, as that could involve running a robot, which is a potentially forbidden activity).

[RunawayEngineer]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Right because we should be teaching our students that not doing your absolute best is acceptable. If I am not 100% perfect all the time and I have students that want to work on the bot to get it to that point you can bet your mediocrity loving butt I say there's a need. I'm not going to let some talking head* get in the way of inspiration just so they can feel important. I'm going to be showing my students the value of passion.


* Talking heads that will always joke about how they couldn't do half of what these kids do. Because that's the lesson we want to show our students, that technical illiteracy is acceptable. That it's something to joke about.

Technical illiteracy is totally acceptable. There are thousands of ways to contribute to society without knowing anything about engineering.
I think that you are reading far into offhand remarks to interpret them to be discouraging people from pursuing technical interests because technical acuity is something you are born with or not. If their field isn't technical or educational, then they can't be blamed for making a comment that happens to have a common misconception underlying it.

Second, working on the robot in and of itself is not inspiration. People don't go to the opening ceremony because they are lazy or less passionate. They go because they see the bigger picture. Students are taught throughout the season about working hard to succeed - the ceremonies are one of the only chances that they get to see the bigger picture: communities, politicians, organizations, donors, volunteers, etc coming together around a common goal that has nothing to do with how well the individual robot performs.

[pyroslev]

*Back to the Orgininal Thread Topic for this post*
Past two years, we've established a Tech Support Group in conjunction with the CSA and FTA staff. We aim to provide enough people to help with the basics.

At the close of the pits on the first day, we evaluate what teams are in need based on NI Parkway, Lead Robot Inspectors notes, general observations and requests. Any teams lacking inspection will have priority on being allowed to work usually have someone from out Support Group.

Here's the list of rules/guidelines go by:

• Usually teams that are lacking inspection are allowed. Then the LRI or some RI is around.
• Teams in the first few matches lacking BASIC functionality are allowed as well. The keyword is BASIC functionality. If the robot can drive, then they have no need to work in the pits.
• Another rule is the bare minimum of persons required.
• No power tools as a rule of thumb.
• Lastly, they must have someone from our group working with them or present as a Gracious Professional. This will also allow us to get the team in the Queue Line or even on the field ASAP. It'll also allow us to enforce the no power tools rule.

All this will depend on your event's staff and coordination. If there is the NEED to work on the robot, then consult with the CSA. They can evaluate your situation. Then if needed, they can elevate it so you might be able to work quietly during the ceremonies.

Usually this is only for the first day of actual competition BUT in rare situations we have let teams work during the second opening ceremonies. But all the same rules apply.

*Return to the thread in the thread*

[jvriezen]

I don't see where in the rules it states that the pits MUST be open during ceremonies. The pit hours are not stated in the rules. The volunteers running the event determine the pit hours. Yes, if the pits do happen to be open during ceremonies, there are rules regarding tool noise and national anthems. But the rules also strongly encourage teams to attend the ceremonies, for very good reasons.

If a volunteer states that the pit is closed and instructs you to leave, then you need to respect that decision of the regional/district leadership. You may not agree, and you may state your position and appeal to a higher authority, but at that point in time, if Pit Admin or an inspector or other volunteer announces the pits are closed, then the pits are closed-- respect that.

I do agree that the rules could provide more guidance here -- I would prefer it says that any team who has not passed inspection may have some number of people in their pit during ceremonies (people from any team working on the non-passing bot), and that its up to the discretion of regional leadership regarding whether the pits are closed to others, or open to a limited number per team.

Students on a team with an inspected robot will have the best experience by participating in the opening ceremonies -- they will have plenty of robot/pit time during the regional. Students with bots not passing inspection will have the best experience by having a few miss the ceremonies but not miss their first one or two matches.

If the rules stay as they are now, then the pits are closed if event leadership says they are closed. If you would like them open during ceremonies, then, when you are eligible, start volunteering until you are chosen as a lead volunteer in a position to decide the pits are open during ceremonies-- and explain your decision to the volunteers that are on your crew that have to stay in the pits and have less 'down' time.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

I don't see where in the rules it states that the pits MUST be open during ceremonies. The PIT hours are not stated in the rules. The volunteers running the event determine the PIT hours. Yes, if the pits do happen to be open during ceremonies, there are rules regarding tool noise and national anthems. But the rules also strongly encourage teams to attend the ceremonies, for very good reasons.

If a volunteer states that the pit is closed and instructs you to leave, then you need to respect that decision of the regional/district leadership. You may not agree, and you may state your position and appeal to a higher authority, but at that point in time, if Pit Admin or an inspector or other volunteer announces the pits are closed, then the pits are closed-- respect that.

Obviously this is my opinion, but I really feel like we're stretching to say that the rule outlined in the rule book is there 'just in case' the pits are open. The volunteers running the event SHOULD NOT determine pit hours. It should be the same everywhere.

To counter your second point, the reason anyone would even disagree with the pits being closed to begin with is because there is not a clear expectation for the team event to event. If the rules were the same everywhere, there would be much less disagreement.

Need of working time should not be determined by volunteers, period. Its a slippery slope and it counters the idea of everyone working on their robots for the same period of time (even if it's 'only half an hour').

-Brando

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

The volunteers running the event SHOULD NOT determine pit hours. It should be the same everywhere. ... If the rules were the same everywhere, there would be much less disagreement.

Whether it should be the same everywhere or not is a separate issue-- it currently is not. Currently, lead volunteers do determine pit hours, because they are not specified in the rules. They also determine team pit size, rules about bringing in outside food (often venue enforced), how far in advance to call teams for queuing (pulling them from the pit), quantity/size/quality/hours of practice field, etc. There are lots of things that differ from event to event.

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

Need of working time should not be determined by volunteers, period.

The inspection team does determine that a robot needs working time when it hasn't passed inspection. That was the only 'exception' I suggested to otherwise equal pit time for all teams at the event.

My main objection is the notion that it is ok to defy the event volunteers when they say the pit is closed due to your interpretation of the rules, which I've noted is not the only possible interpretation. You can politely try to convince them it should not be because the rules may seem to indicate so, but if they don't agree, then the pits are indeed closed. Your interpretation of the rules is not the one that really matters here. Defying the lead volunteer and insisting on staying in the pit is not gracious professionalism.

I'd suggest that at your next event, you find the decision maker volunteer well in advance of ceremonies, plead your case with rules in hand, and then accept the decision made and optionally express your concerns with the appropriate higher level authority if you disagree.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

The inspection team does determine that a robot needs working time when it hasn't passed inspection. That was the only 'exception' I suggested to otherwise equal pit time for all teams at the event.

My main objection is the notion that it is ok to defy the event volunteers when they say the pit is closed due to your interpretation of the rules, which I've noted is not the only possible interpretation. You can politely try to convince them it should not be because the rules may seem to indicate so, but if they don't agree, then the pits are indeed closed. Your interpretation of the rules is not the one that really matters here. Defying the lead volunteer and insisting on staying in the pit is not gracious professionalism.

I'd suggest that at your next event, you find the decision maker volunteer well in advance of ceremonies, plead your case with rules in hand, and then accept the decision made and optionally express your concerns with the appropriate higher level authority if you disagree.

I'm sorry but I just want to be sure you aren't interpreting what I said as 'defying event volunteers' because no where in any of my responses have I made any inclination to do so. I think you are greatly misinterpreting my disagreement with how rules are enforced/made-up/differ event to event as some indication that I stage a sit-in during opening ceremonies. How does the system improve if we don't identify and fix flaws?

It really should not have to come to hunting down event chairs (which I myself am one of) who are busy dealing with many logistics to interpret a rule. I just don't see why this needs to be undefined and left up to each event.

-Brando

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

Whether it should be the same everywhere or not is a separate issue-- it currently is not. Currently, lead volunteers do determine pit hours, because they are not specified in the rules. They also determine team pit size, rules about bringing in outside food (often venue enforced), how far in advance to call teams for queuing (pulling them from the pit), quantity/size/quality/hours of practice field, etc. There are lots of things that differ from event to event.


The inspection team does determine that a robot needs working time when it hasn't passed inspection. That was the only 'exception' I suggested to otherwise equal pit time for all teams at the event.

My main objection is the notion that it is ok to defy the event volunteers when they say the pit is closed due to your interpretation of the rules, which I've noted is not the only possible interpretation. You can politely try to convince them it should not be because the rules may seem to indicate so, but if they don't agree, then the pits are indeed closed. Your interpretation of the rules is not the one that really matters here. Defying the lead volunteer and insisting on staying in the pit is not gracious professionalism.

I'd suggest that at your next event, you find the decision maker volunteer well in advance of ceremonies, plead your case with rules in hand, and then accept the decision made and optionally express your concerns with the appropriate higher level authority if you disagree.

I'm not sure if you meant your remarks to be hostel, but unless you have personally seen Brandon defying a lead volunteer you may want to be very careful with the way you word your statements. Brandon in fact does run events as he has stated in this thread and I don't believe I have actually met him but from everything I have seen on these forms and heard he is pretty good model of gracious professionalism. His statements never said anything about people defying volunteers, he was just suggesting a rule change like many have done this thread. The goal should always be improvement of the system.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

I'm sorry but I just want to be sure you aren't interpreting what I said as 'defying event volunteers' because no where in any of my responses have I made any inclination to do so.

You said, "Need of working time should not be determined by volunteers, period." If that wasn't intended to imply disregarding a volunteer when he or she tells you to stop working on the robot and leave the pit for opening ceremonies, you might want to rephrase it.

[MARS_James]

So I sent an email request to Frank via FRC questions here is the initial email and response:

I am James Comstock of FRC Team 179 The Children of The Swamp

After a very debated discussion on chiefdelphi I was wondering if we could get some clarification about pit work during ceremonies. The FRC Manual has a statement about not making noise and that it is highly encouraged to attend said ceremonies but it seems to be debated whether that means if you NEED to do work (You have an early match the next day, or need to pass inspection) you can stay or if it is just if you WANT to do work (trying to get the bugs out of a more complex autonomous, or general robot maintenance) you can stay.

Clarification from headquarters would help standardize this across competitions and help relieve potential tension between volunteers and teams as we would have a clear precedent.

Thanks,

James Comstock

Hi James,

Frank here. This is more of a rules question, as it relates directly to section 4.9 of the Admin Manual (at least that was the section in last year’s manual). It’s a good question, but I suggest you ask it through the official Q&A channel when it opens shortly after kickoff. You’ll be able to find info on the Q&A system here: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...c/game-q-and-a


Thanks!

Frank

So for now we know what we can do which is nothing until the q&a opens

[Kevin Sheridan]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

You said, "Need of working time should not be determined by volunteers, period." If that wasn't intended to imply disregarding a volunteer when he or she tells you to stop working on the robot and leave the pit for opening ceremonies, you might want to rephrase it.

I dont think Brandon's post implies that at all. It seems everyone in the thread is agreement that teams who need the time to work on their robot (to pass inspection, etc.) should be allowed to work on their robot during opening ceremonies. The disagreement is who decides that if the work the team is doing is a "need" or just a "want." I agree with Brandon that a volunteer has no place in telling a team that the work they are doing is not needed. Its just silly to put that decision in the hands of volunteers at every event. Brandon is advocating a better rule set so volunteers would not even be making a judgement that could be defied since the rules would be clearly defined.

[jvriezen]

I in no way intended to be hostile toward anyone here, and I apologize that it came across that way. My objection was not to Brandon specifically. Looking back at the prior posts, it was this statement that lead to my comment:

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

Whenever I am at event I try to remind people [emphasis added, see below] of the rule that allows people to stay in the pits.

As I've stated, there is no 'rule' that allows people to stay in the pits during ceremonies in the event that the pits happen to be closed during the ceremonies, which from actual practice and lack of rule specifics about when the pit must be 'open' seems to be up to the discretion of the event leadership.

I guess the 'people' in the above quote may be misinterpreted... Perhaps the 'people' meant to refer to those who try to close the pits (pit admin, etc.) I initially interpreted it to mean anyone and everyone (students and mentors of other teams) and encouraging them to stay in the pit during ceremonies if they wished in defiance of leadership declaring the pits closed. Again, I apologize for the confusion.