Pit work during ceremonies

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

I in no way intended to be hostile toward anyone here, and I apologize that it came across that way. My objection was not to Brandon specifically. Looking back at the prior posts, it was this statement that lead to my comment:



As I've stated, there is no 'rule' that allows people to stay in the pits during ceremonies in the event that the pits happen to be closed during the ceremonies, which from actual practice and lack of rule specifics about when the pit must be 'open' seems to be up to the discretion of the event leadership.

I guess the 'people' in the above quote may be misinterpreted... Perhaps the 'people' meant to refer to those who try to close the pits (pit admin, etc.) I initially interpreted it to mean anyone and everyone (students and mentors of other teams) and encouraging them to stay in the pit during ceremonies if they wished in defiance of leadership declaring the pits closed. Again, I apologize for the confusion.

The bummer is when the official event schedule doesn't list the pits as closed, but teams are ushered out of the pits during that time.

In that case you have a rule (in the manual), and an official document from the event itself that combined make it clear, 1) The pits aren't closed, and 2) They are allowed to stay, since they aren't closed.

buuuuuuuut... then on short notice teams are told to leave the pits.

I've whined about this for years, I will be more proactive this season. For the events we register at (and any others I volunteer at), I'll bring this issue up with the RD ahead of time, and we'll go with whatever is decided and clarified obviously.

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

and we'll go with whatever i decided and clarified obviously.

Unfortunate typo there... I assume you meant 'is' not 'i'

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by MARS_James

So I sent an email request to Frank via FRC questions here is the initial email and response:





So for now we know what we can do which is nothing until the q&a opens

I am also curious as to how individual events and regions can change this rule. I was told at our events that the PNW region has our own rule that no one is allowed to be in the pits during opening ceremonies. I assume FIRST signed off on this as part of the transition to districts, and I'd like to see where these supplemental district specific rules are listed and which rules the regions are allowed to modify. Is all of "At The Events" allowed to be superseded?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by RunawayEngineer

Technical illiteracy is totally acceptable. There are thousands of ways to contribute to society without knowing anything about engineering.

No, it's not. Not any more than general illiteracy. We live in a world dominated by technology and mathematics. How can someone function if they don't know that 30% of 50 is less than 30% of 60? Or basic logic? (If a and b both have to be true for c to be true and c is true... what can we tell about a and b?) This isn't rocket science, it's basic life skills. And yet I see folks fail abysmally at them all the time. And jokes like that "off the cuff" remark just reinforce the idea that it's acceptable.

We don't tolerate a world in which someone not knowing how to read is acceptable, nor should you tolerate one in which people don't know basic logic or mathematics. It's not about contributing to society, it's about functioning in it.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

No, it's not. Not any more than general illiteracy. We live in a world dominated by technology and mathematics. How can someone function if they don't know that 30% of 50 is less than 30% of 60? Or basic logic? (If a and b both have to be true for c to be true and c is true... what can we tell about a and b?) This isn't rocket science, it's basic life skills. And yet I see folks fail abysmally at them all the time. And jokes like that "off the cuff" remark just reinforce the idea that it's acceptable.

We don't tolerate a world in which someone not knowing how to read is acceptable, nor should you tolerate one in which people don't know basic logic or mathematics. It's not about contributing to society, it's about functioning in it.

I think most people think there is a distinction between 'basic logic and math' and 'engineering and the ability to build a 120 pound working robot'.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

I think most people think there is a distinction between 'basic logic and math' and 'engineering and the ability to build a 120 pound working robot'.

I think most people recognize that the phrase 'technical illiteracy' doesn't mean 'can't build a 120 pound working robot'.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I think most people recognize that the phrase 'technical illiteracy' doesn't mean 'can't build a 120 pound working robot'.

Yes, I agree. Then the speakers who say they can't do what we do (aka build 120 pound working robots) isn't a comment about technical illiteracy.

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

No, it's not. Not any more than general illiteracy. We live in a world dominated by technology and mathematics. How can someone function if they don't know that 30% of 50 is less than 30% of 60? Or basic logic? (If a and b both have to be true for c to be true and c is true... what can we tell about a and b?) This isn't rocket science, it's basic life skills. And yet I see folks fail abysmally at them all the time. And jokes like that "off the cuff" remark just reinforce the idea that it's acceptable.

We don't tolerate a world in which someone not knowing how to read is acceptable, nor should you tolerate one in which people don't know basic logic or mathematics. It's not about contributing to society, it's about functioning in it.

This is a faulty comparison.

Pretty much everyone has the ability to learn to read.

Not everyone has the ability to be an engineer.

It is not at all unacceptable for someone to admit that they do not have the capacity to design and build a robot, because not everyone can. That technical fields are integral to modern society is completely irrelevant to this.

Note that this is not a speaker saying that people should not learn basic arithmetic. This is a speaker saying that he is impressed with students completing specialized, complex technical tasks that he cannot. There is no shame in that, and it is not perpetuating a culture of unacceptable ignorance.

[stufflikethat]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

Back to the main of the thread, I think Tom's suggestion is pretty solid-- with an accompanying warning that, hey, there are probably some pretty important people that want to talk to and congratulate you and it would be nice to show them some respect.

I see your point here about being respectful, but in all fairness what makes these people's 30 minutes any more important than mine or anyone else's. To them its just a speech at a cool robotics event, to my team its 6 weeks of hard work and our chance to attend champs. If "important" people want to come speak at events during ceremonies that is all good, but personally I have heard the opening ceremony speech too many times. Sometimes at an event I would rather work on our team's robot or help a struggling team, while other times I'll be lucky enough to have the luxury to listen to the speaker and simply relax.

In all until the rule states EVERYBODY must leave the pits people should be allowed to respectfully use them in a quiet fashion that is not distracting.

[E Dawg]

Originally Posted by stufflikethat

I see your point here about being respectful, but in all fairness what makes these people's 30 minutes any more important than mine or anyone else's.

Absolutely nothing. That's why we should go to the opening ceremonies. It means that we're saying "Hey, even though I might have better things to do, I am willing to take time out of my busy schedule to come and listen to you." It shows humility as well as respect.

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by E Dawg

Absolutely nothing. That's why we should go to the opening ceremonies. It means that we're saying "Hey, even though I might have better things to do, I am willing to take time out of my busy schedule to come and listen to you." It shows humility as well as respect.

Somewhat agree.. most often you do not have 'better things' to do. The speakers and those introduced usually fall into one or more of the following categories, which should be very compelling reasons to attend and be the better thing you have to do:

1) They (or employees of their company that are allowed time off for FIRST) have volunteered a lot of time to make FIRST and/or the event a reality. You owe them the benefit of your presence and applause as a sign of gratitude and to encourage them to continue their generous support.
2) They have donated a lot of money to make FIRST and/or the event a reality. You owe them the benefit of your presence as a sign of gratitude and to encourage them to continue their generous support.
3) They are influential people (usually politicians) and ...

For that reason, FIRST needs you to
Inspire them and help them
Recognize the value of
Science and
Technology

so that the goals of FIRST are better achieved.

Most of the the people speaking or being introduced (Judges, Refs) have made huge personal sacrifices to give you the FIRST experience. Can you sacrifice a half hour of bot time to give them some thanks by your presence and applause?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Oblarg

This is a faulty comparison.

Pretty much everyone has the ability to learn to read.

Not everyone has the ability to be an engineer.

It is not at all unacceptable for someone to admit that they do not have the capacity to design and build a robot, because not everyone can. That technical fields are integral to modern society is completely irrelevant to this.

Note that this is not a speaker saying that people should not learn basic arithmetic. This is a speaker saying that he is impressed with students completing specialized, complex technical tasks that he cannot. There is no shame in that, and it is not perpetuating a culture of unacceptable ignorance.

Based on the responses I continue to get in this thread, not everyone has the capacity to learn to read.

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Based on the responses I continue to get in this thread, not everyone has the capacity to learn to read.

Or perhaps you're not particularly clear in your writing?

You could lose the snark. It's not pleasant.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by stufflikethat

I see your point here about being respectful, but in all fairness what makes these people's 30 minutes any more important than mine or anyone else's. To them its just a speech at a cool robotics event, to my team its 6 weeks of hard work and our chance to attend champs. If "important" people want to come speak at events during ceremonies that is all good, but personally I have heard the opening ceremony speech too many times.

This is just like that 'why does Einstein have to face the VIP box' thread about Championship.

What makes their time worth your attention is that they've contributed support, in any number of ways, to help make FIRST happen in your region (or on a global scale, in the case of someone like Dean or Woodie). If they're important enough to warrant speeches, then they're there to help bring attention to the event you're at. How exactly is that not "important"?

These people you don't think are important, just because they're not on a team themselves, may have spent just as much time and effort on FIRST as you have in other ways. And their effort is just as important as yours. It's up to you to recognize that and respect them with your time and attention, just as they're respecting you and your efforts with their attendance.

You can put your power tools down for 20 minutes to give these people some respect. Send all-or-most of your team to the stands to respect FIRST's invited guests, and if you really feel like you need 3 or 4 people in the pit, make sure they know to keep it down.

How is that so hard?

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by Libby K

You can put your power tools down for 20 minutes to give these people some respect. Send all-or-most of your team to the stands to respect FIRST's invited guests, and if you really feel like you need 3 or 4 people in the pit, make sure they know to keep it down.

How is that so hard?

It's not. Your response seems, you know, totally reasonable.