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Unread 19-08-2014, 16:14
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Batteries

Our team has been using the standard Enersys NP18-12 batteries for the last several seasons. We typically buy a new set of competition batteries every year or 2 and relegate the old batteries for testing and practice. With the expansion of the list of legal batteries this past year we are looking for feedback from teams that have experience with batteries other than the Enersys NP18-12. We had a battery start leaking this weekend around the top seal and are looking to replace batteries this coming season and would like to know which batteries are “top quality” and which have a reputation for not holding up. Our experience with the Enersys batteries has been hit or miss. Some seem much better than others. For reference we have a nice battery testing setup including a West Mountain Radio CBA with dual 500W amplifiers. We are building new battery charging station(s) this fall around Autometer BusPro-660 chargers and are looking to replace our competition batteries with “top quality” batteries. Now that we have a competition season behind us does anyone have any advice on the “best” batteries to go with based on the 2014 legal battery list*?:

Enersys (P/N: NP18-12)
MK Battery (P/N: ES17-12)
Battery Mart (P/N: SLA-12V18)
Sigma (P/N: SP12-18)
Universal Battery (P/N: UB12180)
Power Patrol (P/N: SLA1116)
Werker Battery (P/N: WKA12-18NB)
Power Sonic (P/N: PS-12180 NB)
Yuasa (P/N: NP18-12B)
Panasonic (P/N: LC-RD-1217)
Interstate Batteries (P/N: BSL1116)
Enersys (P/N: NP18-12BFR)
Enersys (P/N: NP18-12B)

*Yes, we know what was legal last season may not be legal next season.
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Unread 19-08-2014, 16:47
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Re: Batteries

Hey Chuck, I have been very happy with the MK batteries. If you call them and tell them you are a FIRST team they give you a pretty good deal. We have paid about $40 each including shipping. We normally order 6 during each build season.

They're customer service has been great. We had an event we needed the batteries for and they were able to work it out with the UPS driver to deliver the batteries to me in a parking lot after they got picked up from their distribution center in Houston. It was pretty crazy.
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Unread 19-08-2014, 17:03
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Re: Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV
They're customer service has been great. We had an event we needed the batteries for and they were able to work it out with the UPS driver to deliver the batteries to me in a parking lot after they got picked up from their distribution center in Houston. It was pretty crazy.
Did you use the batteries that weekend? Did you cycle the new batteries a few times before using them in competition or did you use them fresh?

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Unread 19-08-2014, 17:07
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Re: Batteries

I know it doesn't exactly answer your question, but check out your local Batteries Plus. They usually don't have a lot of variety, but they'll likely have something that's on the approved list. Also, if you register with them as a corporate account (all it requires is a phone number, and they've never called me) you get a rather large discount... I want to say it was almost 3 for the price of two last time I went! At any rate, that should save a little bit on shipping!
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Unread 19-08-2014, 17:12
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Re: Batteries

I used YUASA or Power Source at work for emergency lights, emergency notification systems and fire systems. They would perform better than some other brands we used. I never seemed to have any issues. Even under extreme loads, they did not have to be replaced as often as I thought.
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Unread 19-08-2014, 17:29
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Re: Batteries

Thanks for the info so far guys. For clarification by "best" batteries I'm not necessarily looking for cheapest. As with anything, I know some batteries are better quality than others but I don't really have enough experience with different battery brands to know which are "high quality" and which to avoid. My philosophy is EVERYTHING on the robot starts with the battery so why risk using anything less than the best quality. We all pay a lot of money per match to play in FRC and I have seen may teams loose many matches because of battery issues over the years. Why risk it with el cheapo batteries? I just don't know which on the list have the best reputation for quality.

We have always gotten our Enersys batteries from Portable Power Systems: http://www.portablepower.com/12_volt...nesis_NP18-12B

I'm not saying at all that we are unhappy with the Enersys batteries and in the absence of info as to a better option I would likely buy more Enersys from PPS tomorrow if I had to. I'm just wanting more info from the collective FIRST community to make a more informed purchasing decision between now and whenever the time comes. I figure everyone would like the benefit of knowing what batteries seem good and what seem not so great. With a few thousand teams using probably tens of thousands of different batteries now there has to be some good and bad recommendations especially given how opinionated folks on CD can get.

So, I have one vote for MK from Allen so far...
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Unread 19-08-2014, 18:43
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Re: Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnageNick View Post
Did you use the batteries that weekend? Did you cycle the new batteries a few times before using them in competition or did you use them fresh?

-Nick
We used them right away and I don't remember having any problems.

We have been testing batteries using a CBA III this summer and plan to continue during the year.

If anyone is interested here are the first test results, these aren't that useful until we start seeing what happens to them over time. We also didn't run baseline tests on them when they were new either.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...g0_mqTdVg/edit

These are tested at a 7 AMP drain and a cut off voltage of 10.5 Volts.

Here is a sample graph from one of the the battery test.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0dr...VYNF94THc/edit
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Unread 20-08-2014, 07:36
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Re: Batteries

For those of you that are using the CBA, I recommend that you test at 7-10 amps and 8 volt cutoff. This will give you curves that match the manufacturer curves for most batteries. The CBA has a top current draw of about 7.5 amps, the CBAIV will do a little more. It helps to test batteries once or twice a year and use the overlay feature to see the difference in tests.
BTW, let West Mountain know you are a FIRST team, I have been trying to get them to be sponsors for a couple of years. They are located in a Milwaukee suburb.
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Unread 20-08-2014, 11:02
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Re: Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckDickerson View Post
we have a nice battery testing setup including a West Mountain Radio CBA with dual 500W amplifiers
What sort of tests were you planning to do with those amplifiers?


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Unread 20-08-2014, 11:51
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Re: Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ether View Post
What sort of tests were you planning to do with those amplifiers?


The CBAIII we have can only sink ~7.5A @ 12VDC. We have/do run tests at 7.5A like Allen and Al suggest above but also run tests at higher current draw (50A/75A) using the dual amplifiers. FRC bots pull a lot more current for a short 2 minute match than the 7.5A tests simulate. We like to stress test our batteries under conditions that more simulate FRC bots. We have identified under-performing batteries this way.
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Unread 20-08-2014, 14:06
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Re: Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckDickerson View Post
We ... also run tests at higher current draw (50A/75A) using the dual amplifiers... We have identified under-performing batteries this way.
What I understand you to be saying (please correct if this is not the intending meaning) is that you have identified under-performing batteries which would not have been identified with the 7.5A test alone. Is that right?


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Unread 20-08-2014, 14:32
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Re: Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ether View Post
What I understand you to be saying (please correct if this is not the intending meaning) is that you have identified under-performing batteries which would not have been identified with the 7.5A test alone. Is that right?


I suppose it would be unfair to say that they wouldn't eventually be found to be under-performing with a 7.5A test. We have had a few batteries that seemed OK testing at a lower current draw (~7.5A) that dropped off rapidly at a higher current draw (~50A). I will try to pull up some CBA data/plots this evening and compare.

I'll have to look again at the battery test files but I don't think I usually test them to as low a cutoff voltage as Allen (10.5V) and AL (8V) suggest. IIRC I usually set a cutoff voltage of 11.5V.
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Unread 20-08-2014, 14:41
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Re: Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckDickerson View Post
I'll have to look again at the battery test files but I don't think I usually test them to as low a cutoff voltage as Allen (10.5V) and AL (8V) suggest. IIRC I usually set a cutoff voltage of 11.5V.
I'm interested to know why Al tests all the way down to 8V. We went with 10.5V as that's about as bad as we have ever had a battery come off the field. We don't compete with voltages lower than that (no load voltage) so we didn't feel it necessary to drop them that low. Maybe we should be lowering the cut off voltage.
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Unread 20-08-2014, 15:07
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Re: Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV View Post
I'm interested to know why Al tests all the way down to 8V. We went with 10.5V as that's about as bad as we have ever had a battery come off the field. We don't compete with voltages lower than that (no load voltage) so we didn't feel it necessary to drop them that low. Maybe we should be lowering the cut off voltage.
In 2009, our battery voltage would drop down to 7V after a heavy match, and under load, during the match, would display around 6V. We came very close to a brownout.

Of course, we were using 9 or 10 motors that year, and they were always on 85% of the time.

But its definitely possible to have the robot operate at dangerously low voltages, so it might be relevant to test the battery down to low voltages.
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Unread 20-08-2014, 15:08
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Re: Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV View Post
I'm interested to know why Al tests all the way down to 8V. We went with 10.5V as that's about as bad as we have ever had a battery come off the field. We don't compete with voltages lower than that (no load voltage) so we didn't feel it necessary to drop them that low. Maybe we should be lowering the cut off voltage.
Basically the same philosophy with us. I think the 50A test cutoff at 11.5V usually take 6 or 8 minutes or something like that. Again, I'm pulling from memory right now so let me look at the data and verify but the tests go much faster and, well, you know how many batteries we usually bring to competition so it really speeds the testing process up as well. I know there will be comments about this process being harsh on the batteries and that manufacturers test at a lot lower current draw for a lot longer period of time but we aren't using these batteries like that so my philosophy is why test them like that? We stress a battery for 2+ minutes through a 120A breaker. 50A or even 75A draw for a few minutes seems reasonable to me. I actually wish I could figure out how to program the CBA & amplifiers to cycle the current draw to like 100A or 150A for a short time (seconds) then draw less and sort of simulate a 2-3 minute match. That would seem to be a better indicator of how well the batteries will hold up the way we use them.

For what it's worth we used to always charge our batteries using the 2A setting on our chargers. A couple of years ago (through our battery testing) we found the batteries seem to do better charging them using the 6A setting. We just got some of the Autometer BusPro-660 chargers which are 6 bank 5A chargers designed for SLA. I hope they work out well. I guess we will see this coming season.

All this battery testing discussion is great and useful but I really hope the collective community can provide some good insight into what their experiences were this year (good or bad) using battery brands other than the Enersys.
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