Go to Post It's over, done, let's move on and be positive. Next year maybe everything will be perfect. :cool: - Ed Sparks [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
View Poll Results: How mecanum drive effects a teams position on your pick list
Automatic DNP 34 11.07%
Moved lower 84 27.36%
Depends on performance 161 52.44%
Nothing (does not effect position) 22 7.17%
Other (please explain in thread) 6 1.95%
Voters: 307. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 3.67 average. Display Modes
  #46   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 02:19
T^2 T^2 is offline
Registered User
FRC #5499
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Berkeley
Posts: 219
T^2 has a reputation beyond reputeT^2 has a reputation beyond reputeT^2 has a reputation beyond reputeT^2 has a reputation beyond reputeT^2 has a reputation beyond reputeT^2 has a reputation beyond reputeT^2 has a reputation beyond reputeT^2 has a reputation beyond reputeT^2 has a reputation beyond reputeT^2 has a reputation beyond reputeT^2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Russell View Post
Any videos of this?
I checked out a few of their videos, and in qual 89 of MSC there are a few moments when they cause noticeable forced lateral motion of an opposing robot.
Reply With Quote
  #47   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 03:41
Caleb Sykes's Avatar
Caleb Sykes Caleb Sykes is offline
Registered User
FRC #4536 (MinuteBots)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 1,062
Caleb Sykes has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb Sykes has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb Sykes has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb Sykes has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb Sykes has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb Sykes has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb Sykes has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb Sykes has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb Sykes has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb Sykes has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb Sykes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_Mills View Post
There was a very small handful of robots able to complete 7 cycles, which was a task that required nearly no pushing, and all maneuverability. If mecanum wheels were more maneuverable, you would expect the best cyclers to be mecanum robots, but this was not the case. 118, 469, 610, 245, 868, 11, etc., were all tank drive robots.
2052 completed 7 cycles with a mecanum drive train, so the 7-disk cycle club was not exclusively made up of tank drive robots.
Reply With Quote
  #48   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 07:58
jwfoss jwfoss is offline
Chasing Elegant Simplicity
AKA: Justin Foss
FRC #0558 (Elm City Robo Squad)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: New Haven, CT
Posts: 592
jwfoss has a reputation beyond reputejwfoss has a reputation beyond reputejwfoss has a reputation beyond reputejwfoss has a reputation beyond reputejwfoss has a reputation beyond reputejwfoss has a reputation beyond reputejwfoss has a reputation beyond reputejwfoss has a reputation beyond reputejwfoss has a reputation beyond reputejwfoss has a reputation beyond reputejwfoss has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

This is my opinion and should not reflect on my current or any former teams.

Before I state anything, I understand that there have been successful teams running mecanum wheels or some form of mecanum-traction combos, locally 126 and 230 have had successful seasons on these wheels.

Far too many teams pick mecanum wheels for the "cool factor" without a solid understanding of the pro's and con's of the system. I would in fact rather pick a partner running an off the self kitbot then a mecanum drive robot.

Generally speaking, drivetrain quality (like bumper quality) can be an indicator of overall robot performance or in the case of our current pre-match scouting and point of interest to determine an alliances strengths and weakness.
__________________
2003-2006 | FRC 0176 | Aces High - Student
2007-2010 | FRC 0229 | Division by Zero - Mentor in Training
2011-2013 | FRC 2168 | Aluminum Falcons - Mechanical Mentor
2013-20xx | FRC 0558 | Elm City Robo Squad - Mechanical Mentor
Reply With Quote
  #49   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 09:17
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Joining the 900 Meme Team
FRC #0079
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Misplaced Michigander
Posts: 4,074
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkling16 View Post
2052 completed 7 cycles with a mecanum drive train, so the 7-disk cycle club was not exclusively made up of tank drive robots.
At a real event.
__________________




.
Reply With Quote
  #50   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 09:38
Bryan Herbst's Avatar
Bryan Herbst Bryan Herbst is offline
Registered User
AKA: Bryan
FRC #2052 (KnightKrawler)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 545
Bryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
At a real event.
Are you implying that the Minnesota State Championship is not a real event because it doesn't occur during the regular season?

Realize that all robots attending the state championship must be bagged between their final event and the championship, minus a short unbag perior similar to a district championship. The event uses a real field with the FMS, an FTA, and all the workings of a standard FIRST event. It also includes only the best teams in the state, which makes it more competitive than the "real events" that happen in the state.

I'm curious as to how it isn't a "real event."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckDickerson View Post
mecanums are never on Einstein.
I would argue that this is an effect of the inherent bias against mecanums by all of the teams that regularly make it to Einstein more than evidence that robots with mecanum wheels are inherently worse than traditional tank drive robots.
__________________
Team 2052- KnightKrawler
Mentor and volunteer
Reply With Quote
  #51   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 09:52
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Joining the 900 Meme Team
FRC #0079
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Misplaced Michigander
Posts: 4,074
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis View Post
Are you implying that the Minnesota State Championship is not a real event because it doesn't occur during the regular season?

Realize that all robots attending the state championship must be bagged between their final event and the championship, minus a short unbag perior similar to a district championship. The event uses a real field with the FMS, an FTA, and all the workings of a standard FIRST event. It also includes only the best teams in the state, which makes it more competitive than the "real events" that happen in the state.

I'm curious as to how it isn't a "real event."


I would argue that this is an effect of the inherent bias against mecanums by all of the teams that regularly make it to Einstein more than evidence that robots with mecanum wheels are inherently worse than traditional tank drive robots.

It's an off season event. I treat it like all other off season events. Just like post/pre season performance doesn't factor into stats in sports.

Or, put a really simple way, if it's not an official event it's not real, it's just for play.
__________________




.
Reply With Quote
  #52   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 11:29
Unsung FIRST Hero
Karthik Karthik is offline
VEX Robotics GDC Chairman
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,346
Karthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis View Post
I would argue that this is an effect of the inherent bias against mecanums by all of the teams that regularly make it to Einstein more than evidence that robots with mecanum wheels are inherently worse than traditional tank drive robots.
Yup, there's an international conspiracy of discrimination against mecanum robots by the perennial Einstein teams. These teams have foregone maximizing their utility and competitiveness by collectively (or coincidentally) making the same inefficient alliance selection decisions. Right.
__________________
:: Karthik Kanagasabapathy ::
"Enthusiasm is one of the most powerful engines of success. When you do a thing, do it with all your might. Put your whole soul into it. Stamp it with your own personality. Be active, be energetic, be enthusiastic and faithful and you will accomplish your object. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm" -- R.W. Emerson
My TEDx Talk - The Subtle Secrets of Success
Full disclosure: I work for IFI and VEX Robotics, and am the Chairman of the VEX Robotics and VEX IQ Game Design Committees
.
Reply With Quote
  #53   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 11:39
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Joining the 900 Meme Team
FRC #0079
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Misplaced Michigander
Posts: 4,074
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik View Post
Yup, there's an international conspiracy of discrimination against mecanum robots by the perennial Einstein teams. These teams have foregone maximizing their utility and competitiveness by collectively (or coincidentally) making the same inefficient alliance selection decisions. Right.
You forgot the collaboration with the Shadow Government. Clearly this is their insidious work.
__________________




.
Reply With Quote
  #54   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 11:50
magnets's Avatar
magnets magnets is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 748
magnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

I don't think mecanum wheels are a great drivetrain. That said, I think a lot of teams who choose mecanum wheels also make other poor choices for their robot, and that is the real reason they aren't on Einstein.

The Einstein level teams pick teams who have high quality and reliable robots, which are generally made by teams who don't use mecanum wheels.

That is not meant to be a blanket statement, but my general view and opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #55   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 11:52
pntbll1313's Avatar
pntbll1313 pntbll1313 is offline
2052 Coach, Build/Electrical Mentor
AKA: Pete
FRC #2052 (KnightKrawler)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: New Brighton, MN
Posts: 254
pntbll1313 has much to be proud ofpntbll1313 has much to be proud ofpntbll1313 has much to be proud ofpntbll1313 has much to be proud ofpntbll1313 has much to be proud ofpntbll1313 has much to be proud ofpntbll1313 has much to be proud ofpntbll1313 has much to be proud ofpntbll1313 has much to be proud ofpntbll1313 has much to be proud of
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadandcookies View Post
2220 has been picked by a certain MN team that has used mecanum for the last few years-- 2052 (who has also won three regionals in a row now).

However, frankly, they're the only team I've ever seen that was successful with mecanum-- and that's because a whole lot of driver practice (they're also the only mecanum bot I've seen that actually "runs circles" around others in terms of evasiveness), and just generally the great quality that they build into their robots.
Thanks for the complements! (We've actually won 4 regionals in a row, and 2 state championships, but who's counting )
__________________
2016 (mentor/drive-coach)
Quarter-Finalist-Einstein, Winner-Carson Division Champs, Winner-10K Lakes, Chairman's Award-10K Lakes, Finalists-Lake Superior,
Winner-MSHSL Robotics Competition

2015 (mentor/drive-coach)
Finalists-10K Lakes, Finalists-Lake Superior, Finalist-MSHL Robotics Competition, Quarter-Finalist-Galileo Division Champs
2014 (mentor/drive-coach)
Winner-10K Lakes, Winner-Lake Superior Winner-MSHSL Robotics Competition, Quarter-Finalist-Galileo Division Champs
2013 (mentor/drive-coach)
Winner-10K Lakes, Winner-Lake Superior, Winner-MSHSL Robotics Competition, Quarter-Finalist-Newton Division Champs
2012 (mentor/drive-coach)
Finalists-Lake Superior, Semi-Finalist-MSHSL State Championship, Semi-Finalists at 10,000 Lakes
2008-2011 (college mentor)
2007 (driver)
Quarter Finalist-Milwaukee
Reply With Quote
  #56   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 12:20
Bryan Herbst's Avatar
Bryan Herbst Bryan Herbst is offline
Registered User
AKA: Bryan
FRC #2052 (KnightKrawler)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 545
Bryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond reputeBryan Herbst has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
It's an off season event. I treat it like all other off season events. Just like post/pre season performance doesn't factor into stats in sports.

Or, put a really simple way, if it's not an official event it's not real, it's just for play.
I can see that when talking about rankings and official stats (IRI winners will never be truly be considered FRC world champions), but I think when we are discussing the subjective capabilities of a drive train, we can take into account all of the data available to us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik View Post
Yup, there's an international conspiracy of discrimination against mecanum robots by the perennial Einstein teams. These teams have foregone maximizing their utility and competitiveness by collectively (or coincidentally) making the same inefficient alliance selection decisions. Right.
If I came across as conspiratorial, I apologize. I'm not trying to claim that there's a conspiracy against mecanum wheels- I'm just saying that it is unlikely that a team with mecanum wheels will make it to Einstein as a second or third (or fourth) pick by one of the perennial Einstein teams because mecanum is an automatic DNP for many of those teams.

For a mecanum team to make it to Einstein, I think they will have to be an alliance captain. That is the point I was trying to make.
__________________
Team 2052- KnightKrawler
Mentor and volunteer
Reply With Quote
  #57   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 12:22
Max Boord Max Boord is offline
Registered User
FRC #0179 (The Children of The Swamp), FRC #1592 (Bionic Tigers)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 239
Max Boord has a brilliant futureMax Boord has a brilliant futureMax Boord has a brilliant futureMax Boord has a brilliant futureMax Boord has a brilliant futureMax Boord has a brilliant futureMax Boord has a brilliant futureMax Boord has a brilliant futureMax Boord has a brilliant futureMax Boord has a brilliant futureMax Boord has a brilliant future
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnets View Post
I think a lot of teams who choose mecanum wheels also make other poor choices for their robot, and that is the real reason they aren't on Einstein.
So your saying alot teams that choose X drivetrain will also choose Y gamepiece minipulation design? Are you also implying that that mechanism is inferrior? If so my eyes and statistics disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnets View Post
That is not meant to be a blanket statement, but my general view and opinion.
Sure looks like one.
__________________
Past teams:
1523 (2011-2014)
1065 (2014-2016)
3932 & 4592 (2016)

Last edited by Max Boord : 22-08-2014 at 12:27.
Reply With Quote
  #58   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 12:26
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Joining the 900 Meme Team
FRC #0079
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Misplaced Michigander
Posts: 4,074
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis View Post
I can see that when talking about rankings and official stats (IRI winners will never be truly be considered FRC world champions), but I think when we are discussing the subjective capabilities of a drive train, we can take into account all of the data available to us.
"Quarterback X is the worst quarterback ever"

"Why?"

"Their completion percentage is crap if you include all the practice games they played in"

See the problem with including all data?

Of the teams that completed 7 cycles DURING THE COMPETITION SEASON not a single one of them was mecanum wheeled.

Why is this? If they are touted as more mobile why were these "inferior" drivetrains able to accomplish something that they were not?

What did 2052 do after the season to be able to accomplish 7 cycles? Why did they not accomplish it during the season?
__________________




.
Reply With Quote
  #59   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 12:30
Jared Russell's Avatar
Jared Russell Jared Russell is offline
Taking a year (mostly) off
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs), FRC #0341 (Miss Daisy)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,080
Jared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis View Post
For a mecanum team to make it to Einstein, I think they will have to be an alliance captain. That is the point I was trying to make.
It totally depends on the game. FIRST has given us games where defense was nonexistent (2001), and they could do so again. But every game in the three-team alliance era has involved physical contact between opposing robots in any role (scoring, defense, or counter-defense) once the level of play gets sufficiently high. In such situations, pure mecanum drives are clearly at a disadvantage. Depending on the game and the machine, perhaps good driving or superior scoring functions more than make up the difference. But in my experience this is the exception rather than the rule, especially once you get to Champs and there is a large pool of effective robots.

So I agree with you, unless FIRST really departs from recent game design trends.
Reply With Quote
  #60   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-08-2014, 12:39
magnets's Avatar
magnets magnets is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 748
magnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Boord View Post
So your saying alot teams that choose X drivetrain will also choose Y gamepiece minipulation design? Are you also implying that that mechanism is inferrior? If so my eyes and statistics disagree.
The fact that no mecanum wheeled robots on Einstein has occurred means any number of these 4 things.

1. Mecanum wheels somehow prevent teams from going to Einstein
2. Teams who chose mecanum wheels also do things that prevent them from going to Einstein
3. Teams who build robots who are capable of going to Einstein do not chose mecanum wheels
4. Einstein has gotten unlucky. This is unlikely, as we've seen an incredible number of robots on Einstein since mecanum wheels first entered FIRST, and none of them have mecanum wheels.

I will rewrite my statement with more disclaimers.

From events in a specific region that I have attended since 2011 and robot that I have seen on the field, I have seen that the majority of mecanum wheeled robots make other decisions that I do not agree with. On a world wide scale, I have yet to see more than one or two mecanum wheeled teams be very successful and claim it had to do with their mecanum wheels.

Also, in the year that mecanum was most useful (IMO, 2011), 254 won with a simple 6WD, proving that you don't need mecanum. In fact, every single Einstein match ever proves that you don't need mecanum to be a very successful team. Personally, I prefer to work with a team that realizes that something like mecanum drive is not something needed to be the very best and spent more time on other parts of their robot.

This is an opinion, and only applies to robots that have only mecanum wheels on drive.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:44.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi