blog; Motor Controller Options for 2015

[RogerR]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

...Also, I like that I don't have to practically write a whole grant just to put some speed controls on our robot...

I've seen statements like this in several places, but it appears to me that they are essentially the same price as existing speed controller options. What am I missing that everyone else has noticed?

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Ether

Using common sense as a guiding principle, would it be permissible to apply a thin film of non-curing thermal grease to the mounting surface of the new Victor SP (or Talon SRX) before bolting it to the robot?

I've already posted my opinion on that.

[magnets]

Originally Posted by Ether

Using common sense as a guiding principle, would it be permissible to apply a thin film of non-curing thermal grease to the mounting surface of the new Victor SP (or Talon SRX) before bolting it to the robot?

Regardless of what somebody tells you is okay on the internet, any common sense interpretation of a rule is not guaranteed to be enforced equally between events.

Common sense to an engineer who designs speed controller would dictate that thermal compound is just fine.

Common sense to an inexperienced robot inspector who has no background in this matter might say that this is illegal.

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

It's not a question about "what rules you don't need to follow"... it's about reading the rules for both the letter and intent of the law and using common sense in interpreting them.

Unfortunately, I do not know the intent of the rule. I'd like to think that FIRST encourages teams to reuse parts from previous years, but in the past FIRST has required use to be wasteful with certain aspects of robot development.

Also, that's not a good enough answer for a team paying $5,000 to compete. An official who is in a bad mood can say "nope, you're wrong" and because they are the highest authority, there is nothing that you can do about it. It also makes things unfair, as different events will have different rules, as not everybody interprets things the same way, especially confusing. For example, nobody can describe the difference between defensive and offensive possession in words, so there will always be disagreements based on interpretation.

Putting in the clarifying sentence (not in a blue box, those things are evil) "Trimming or stripping wires on speed controllers or motors is not considered a modification for the purposes of G-(??)" takes under a minute to write, and helps everybody.

[Ether]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

I've already posted my opinion on that.

Exactly. Your common sense says thermal paste is OK. cgmv123's common sense says it's not OK.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by magnets

"Trimming or stripping wires on speed controllers or motors is not considered a modification for the purposes of G-(??)" takes under a minute to write, and helps everybody.

This should be expanded to pneumatics such as solenoid wires and compressors as well.

In general I think the reuse clause of the rules needs to be rewritten. I have had teams claim to me that if they cut off a section of 4'x8' polycarb in one season they couldn't use any of the rest of that sheet in another season. In my mind that is clearly not the case. The rest of the sheet is not in it's final configuration to go on the robot and is completely legal raw stock material to be cut and used on their robot. However the rule is still confusing teams and we should strive to have as clear rules as possible.

[FrankJ]

Point of reference. I am with Jon. When inspecting I would not consider terminals or leads on a motor/controller to change it from COTs to Fabricated. (Unless the LRI said different, I am a worker bee inspector.) But this in 2014 in came up in terms of the weight allowance for fabricated parts as a grey area. Generally If you look at the definition of "fabricated" in the rules & Q&A, it tends to be strictly defined. For instance using magic on a COTS item makes it Fabricated. I have seen several instances of letter of the rule verses intent of the rule cause headaches. It would be nice to have a blue box exception or similar.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ether

Using common sense as a guiding principle, would it be permissible to apply a thin film of non-curing thermal grease to the mounting surface of the new Victor SP (or Talon SRX) before bolting it to the robot?

Common sense tells me that applying passive grease to a part is not a modification, but I can respect the opinion of others whose common sense tells them otherwise. However, I can also get all laywer-y and decide to apply the thermal grease instead to the spot on the robot where I'm going to mount the speed controller, and I don't see anything in recent rules that would make doing it a problem.

Actually, I'd probably avoid the messiness of grease and use a flexible thermally conductive pad.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by D.Allred

By that logic, I could reuse a CIM (and the new Talons) if I used wirenuts and avoided a crimped connector.

I'm leaning toward Wago Lever Nuts, myself. They're definitely easier to install than a set of PowerPole connectors. The continuous current rating isn't as high as I'd like, but intermittent operation on a 40A circuit ought to be okay.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by RogerR

I've seen statements like this in several places, but it appears to me that they are essentially the same price as existing speed controller options. What am I missing that everyone else has noticed?

I've been interpreting these statements as "It's really nice we won't have to buy ~$1000 of new speed controllers because our old ones are still legal." I don't have any background with a situation where teams had to replace all their speed controllers in one year, but then I've only been in FRC since 2011, so maybe someone who has been around longer can shed a historical light on this.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by RogerR

I've seen statements like this in several places, but it appears to me that they are essentially the same price as existing speed controller options. What am I missing that everyone else has noticed?

If I recall correctly, speed controllers used to be more expensive, but when the Talon came out there was a special introductory price that triggered big discounts on all of the speed controllers that pretty much never went away.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

If I recall correctly, speed controllers used to be more expensive, but when the Talon came out there was a special introductory price that triggered big discounts on all of the speed controllers that pretty much never went away.

Yes, Victors were $120 if I recall.

[Paul Copioli]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Yes, Victors were $120 if I recall.

The Victor was not $120 when the Talon came out. It was $115 when the Jaguar came out in 2009.

It was reduced when the Jaguar was introduced in 2009 to $79, then reduced again when the Talon was introduced in 2013.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

The Victor was not $120 when the Talon came out. It was $115 when the Jaguar came out in 2009.

It was reduced when the Jaguar was introduced in 2009 to $79, then reduced again when the Talon was introduced in 2013.

Sorry, bad recollection.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Gary Dillard

I'm really torn about this. I'm thrilled with the new form factors and functionality in both of the new controllers. Both VexPro and CTRE build high quality, reasonably priced components that have brought competition to another level. But after being burned by the Talon shortage in 2013 and hearing about the Versachassis shortages in 2014, I have honest concerns with either company's ability to meet the demands of introducing a new product line. I don't have many choices - we can stock up on Talons now and miss an opportunity, try to stock up on new controllers (whenever they're available, it appears I can't even pre-order them yet) and gamble on them being legal, or just hang out and hope for the best.
Anyone at either company want to try to give me a warm fuzzy feeling about being able to buy speed controllers week 1? I'm not a business person but I get the difficulty in estimating demand and controlling supply of specific items. Convince me you've figured it out.

We're very happy about the new speed controllers and also VERY happy we have a huge stock of the current old ones. Thank God!

[s1900ahon]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

The Victor was not $120 when the Talon came out. It was $115 when the Jaguar came out in 2009.

It was reduced when the Jaguar was introduced in 2009 to $79, then reduced again when the Talon was introduced in 2013.

I thought the Victor was reduced at the start of the 2010 competition season and to $90

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