Penalizing mecanum wheeled robots durring alliance selection.

[indubitably]

Originally Posted by Abhishek R

Right, but I know it was the first regional for most of the teams there. Our alliance ran the same strategy that we ran at Alamo (2 assist cycles, the 3rd robot being focused on defense) yet the scores were significantly different.

Again, just an observation.

Strategy can also describe how the 2 assists are obtained such as utilizing the human player and in which zones.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by 3175student17

1) An add-on to the question for those who said automatic DNP: Instead of pick list, if you are a top 8 seed and a team with mecanum wheels above you picks you, do you automatically decline, or is it dependent on performance?

If a mecanum robot is in the top 8 and picking, either they are that good or they got a good schedule. If they are consistently in the top 8, they're that good. Therefore, automatically declining them--to me at least--is a really bad move unless the team's strategy does not mesh well with my team's strategy. (OR if they're playing scorched-earth and I know about it, in which case, I may decide to accept anyways...)

2) Are the same penalties made towards teams with:
a)4WD Omni
b)Slide/H Drive
c)Kiwi Drive

I'll take 'em based on performance. Again, it's not the type of drive you have, it's how you use it.

[AmoryG]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

"Quarterback X is the worst quarterback ever"

"Why?"

"Their completion percentage is crap if you include all the practice games they played in"

See the problem with including all data?

Of the teams that completed 7 cycles DURING THE COMPETITION SEASON not a single one of them was mecanum wheeled.

Why is this? If they are touted as more mobile why were these "inferior" drivetrains able to accomplish something that they were not?

What did 2052 do after the season to be able to accomplish 7 cycles? Why did they not accomplish it during the season?

I don't think you can really compare off season professional sports games to off season FRC competitions. For example, in NFL preseason games teams avoid playing their starters and when they are on the field they don't always play at 100% to avoid risking injury. In FRC off season events teams compete with one robot and they usually give it their all since injury/damage is not nearly as big a concern. Off season FRC events can be just as competitive as events that are "for real", so I don't think you should ignore the data.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by AmoryG

For example, in NFL preseason games teams avoid playing their starters and when they are on the field they don't always play at 100% to avoid risking injury.

You don't see teams making many groundbreaking additions or non-critical upkeep on the machines and there likely isn't a lot of scouting either.

However, your example meant to provide contrary evidence of an FRC offseason event being comparable to an NFL preseason game cites something that happens consistently at FRC offseasons: teams don't put in their top drive team for every offseason match of every event they attend.

[pntbll1313]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

What did 2052 do after the season to be able to accomplish 7 cycles? Why did they not accomplish it during the season?

2052 had another 6 hours of unbag time (Minnesota teams must bag their entire robot after their last regional of the season, they are then allowed 6 total hours to work on it out of the bag prior to the Minnesota State Tournament). During that time our driver got more driving practice, along with fixing an issue that caused jams in our hopper. If we had made a practice robot, had a practice field using real carpet, another event, or had just finished the robot sooner we did during the build season, I am confident we would have been at that level of driving earlier. Our driver that season was amazing, but he definitely got better every competition with practice. We went from 3 cycles in our first regional, to 4 at our second, to 6 at worlds during eliminations, and 7 at State. Mostly thanks to driver practice. Mecanum also helped us line up at the feeding station as we had one of the narrower loaders out there.

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

teams don't put in their top drive team for every offseason match of every event they attend.

Clearly everyone is not familiar with the Minnesota State Championship. Teams from Minnesota earn points at their first regional they attend, with point amounts being similar to how teams qualify for the Michigan State Champs. I assure you everyone in Minnesota takes this event extremely seriously, and all teams brought their best drive teams, and their A-game.

[AmoryG]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

You don't see teams making many groundbreaking additions or non-critical upkeep on the machines and there likely isn't a lot of scouting either.

However, your example meant to provide contrary evidence of an FRC offseason event being comparable to an NFL preseason game cites something that happens consistently at FRC offseasons: teams don't put in their top drive team for every offseason match of every event they attend.

I would actually argue the opposite. Teams have greater freedom to modify their robot during the off season because the rules are more relaxed and the robot isn't in a crate so you can make changes more easily. Teams can also put the competition into perspective and make a much more competitive robot.

Also, I'm talking from experience and I remember my team put a lot of effort into off season events. Maybe not all teams do, but my team competed like it was any competition and I'm sure many other teams have a similar mindset. Also I know some off season events are taken very seriously. IRI is the first one that comes to mind.

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

You don't see teams making many groundbreaking additions or non-critical upkeep on the machines and there likely isn't a lot of scouting either.

Sounds like you haven't been to a Cali offseason then.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by AmoryG

I would actually argue the opposite. Teams have greater freedom to modify their robot during the off season because the rules are more relaxed and the robot isn't in a crate so you can make changes more easily. Teams can also put the competition into perspective and make a much more competitive robot.

Also, I'm talking from experience and I remember my team put a lot of effort into off season events. Maybe not all teams do, but my team competed like it was any competition and I'm sure many other teams have a similar mindset. Also I know some off season events are taken very seriously. IRI is the first one that comes to mind.

More professional sports analogies:

LeBron James can take the opportunity to retool the starting 5 he plays on when he calls up 9 of his closest contemporaries on the court for a rousing game of basketball at his house. While ESPN may want to carry the feed, the Elias Sports Bureau probably has better, more official things to do.

Even the FIBA Gold Cup is an event held by a major sanctioning body, but Anthony Davis' FIBA stats aren't coming up in the NBA books.

You want to bring up IRI? MLB doesn't count any statistics in official books for their all-star game either, even if some people walk home with special hardware.

If you want to challenge my anecdote of "not everyone is going out there with every resource they can muster to win the Alliterative Offseason of the week" with "my team does", that's your prerogative. Still doesn't make any of these events FRC-sanctioned events with any official meeting, which is the point Andrew was making earlier.

What was this thread about again?

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

Sounds like you haven't been to a Cali offseason then.

I live in Virginia and am a full time college student. I'd appreciate it if you can fly me out to Chezy Champs

[cmrnpizzo14]

The way that our team operates in terms of picking is that the first pick will be based primarily on ability. If a team complements our strategy of play well and will put the most points on the board then they will be the first pick regardless of drive train (usual caveats for reliability, etc). The first metric that we use for our second pick is drivetrain. We essentially just want a strong drive( traction wheels, 2 speed preferred) and then after that we will look at their scoring potential.

For us drive train can certainly brake a second round pick but it is highly situational. If we are an 8th seed or a similar position where we need to take risks and try a robot with a huge upside then we might go with a mecanum robot for the second pick to try and outscore the higher alliances.

[DanBrowne]

The issue I see with mecanums is that a lot of teams don't drive them like mecanums. They drive them like tank and don't take advantage of the omni-directional capabilities of the wheels. If mecanums were driven correctly (like Team 126 and 58. They know how to drive!), then I think we would be having a different discussion.

It's the same for all configurations. Omnis should be driven like Team 33 did. Swerve. Well if you made a swerve then you know how to drive it correctly because your that smart!

The key to a well driven drivebase is taking advantage of your drives strengths and weaknesses. Tanks shouldn't get t-boned because they can't get out of it. Mecanums shouldn't stay in corners to long because they can't push their way out if they get defense.

In my book, go tank! Only use mecanum if you drive it right and don't waste your time. Unless you want to try something new. Then go for it with gusto and lots of patience!

[T^2]

Originally Posted by DanBrowne

Tanks shouldn't get t-boned because they can't get out of it.

Yes, they can.

[RunawayEngineer]

This year in particular, Mecanyms = DNP for the simple reason that most of the game is spent in contact with other machines - either playing defense or under defense.
In another year where 6 machine pile-ups aren't common and defense isn't as critical, mecanum bots will be back on the table.

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by RunawayEngineer

This year in particular, Mecanyms = DNP for the simple reason that most of the game is spent in contact with other machines - either playing defense or under defense.
In another year where 6 machine pile-ups aren't common and defense isn't as critical, mecanum bots will be back on the table.

I gotta ask, why did your team say yes to 2152 in South Florida then? The competition wasn't that deep I admit but you were next up in the pick order so the difference would have been negligible.

EDIT: Also 21 your other alliance partner ran mecanum this year, did your team try to talk 2152 out of it or no?

[AmoryG]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

More professional sports analogies:

LeBron James can take the opportunity to retool the starting 5 he plays on when he calls up 9 of his closest contemporaries on the court for a rousing game of basketball at his house. While ESPN may want to carry the feed, the Elias Sports Bureau probably has better, more official things to do.

Even the FIBA Gold Cup is an event held by a major sanctioning body, but Anthony Davis' FIBA stats aren't coming up in the NBA books.

You want to bring up IRI? MLB doesn't count any statistics in official books for their all-star game either, even if some people walk home with special hardware.

If you want to challenge my anecdote of "not everyone is going out there with every resource they can muster to win the Alliterative Offseason of the week" with "my team does", that's your prerogative. Still doesn't make any of these events FRC-sanctioned events with any official meeting, which is the point Andrew was making earlier.

What was this thread about again?

I agree with that point, I just don't agree that we should completely ignore what a mecanum wheeled robot did just because they did it at an off season event.