Need general drive train expertise

[jimmers205]

Hey everyone, I'm a rookie member of a team doing research.

On this product's page (http://www.wcproducts.net/wcp-shifter-3cim/), what does it mean by motor pinion select? I see the 11T, etc. down below in the gear ratio charts, but what's the difference between 11Tx2 and 11Tx3?

Also, more general questions:
How do different shifters work?
How does the pneumatics work with the gearbox?
What is spread ratio? Each different spread ratio looks like it has similar overlaps in FPS.

Thanks!

[Richard.Varone]

The motor Pinion is the gear on the motor, so you're able to choose from 11, 12,13,14 tooth gears, the x2 and x3 are the quantities as you can get the gearbox in 2 CIM and 3 CIM form.

My team only has experience with the Dog shifters so I can't really comment on Dog vs Ball.

The Spread Ratio is the ratio between your high gear and low gear, the larger this number the further apart your high and low gear are from each other. Which to use really comes down to your teams preference.

[Munchskull]

Shifters work because the pneumatic cylinder moves the powered gear between two diffrent gears that are both connected to the out put shaft. The gears on the out put shaft have diffrent sizes causing a changing in speed and torque.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by jimmers205

Also, more general questions:
How do different shifters work?
How does the pneumatics work with the gearbox?

Originally Posted by Richard.Varone

My team only has experience with the Dog shifters so I can't really comment on Dog vs Ball.

Two aspects of the same question. One has to do with the actuation, one with the actual shifting.

Dog shifters have small "dog" that is designed to engage either of two gears that it is located between. Moving the dog out engages the outer gear, moving it in engages the inner gear. The gears have some form of machining that the dog can engage. The upside of this is that anybody can do it with fairly basic machining resources (a mill). The downside is that it can take a split-second longer than a ball shifter to shift, and sometimes a lot of force.

Ball shifters work like ball-lock pins: small balls will pop out into small holes in the right gear when a shaft is moved to the right spot. They're a little newer to widespread FRC use than dog shifters.

Now, on to the pneumatics. Or, should you choose to be so brave, the servo. You'll notice that both types of shifter have something moving in and out, often inside an axle. A short-throw pneumatic cylinder is connected directly to that pin/shaft/whatever you want to call it, and then powered. Move the piston one way, you get low gear. Move it the other way for high. You can use a servo, but it takes longer and you'll want more than one servo per gearbox.


You'll notice that I make no recommendation as to type of gearbox. That's deliberate. First, I have minimal experience with ball shifters; second, some things are a personal preference. Which is actually better is, therefore, left as an exercise for each reader. (Though I do recommend pneumatics, specifically pancake cylinders, over servos for shifting.)

[Mike Marandola]

This will give you a general idea of how a ball lock transmission works. This pdf from VEXpro might help as well. In the case of a ball lock transmission, the air cylinder pushes and pulls the shifting plunger (the rod with the protrusion that moves the balls in and out of the gear grooves). In the case of a dog shifter, the air cylinder pushes and pulls the dog gear to mesh with a gear of a different size that has a cutout of the same pattern as the dog. This video might give you a better idea of how dog shifting works.

[Munchskull]

Originally Posted by EricH

(Though I do recommend pneumatics, specifically pancake cylinders, over servos for shifting.)

I do agree with this. They are faster than servos at shifting. My team tried servos in 2012 and they took way too long to shift, I was not on the team at the time but I have heard that it took about two seconds.

[Mike Marandola]

Originally Posted by Munchskull

I do agree with this. They are faster than servos at shifting. My team tried servos in 2012 and they took way too long to shift, I was not on the team at the time but I have heard that it took about two seconds.

I have heard that you are unable to shift on the fly because of that. Is that true?

Edit: Never mind. The Sonic Shifter video I posted higher in this thread shows that shifting on the fly with a servo is possible.
Edit: Never mind again

Originally Posted by Mike Marandola

I have heard that you are unable to shift on the fly because of that. Is that true?

Edit: Never mind. The Sonic Shifter video I posted higher in this thread shows that shifting on the fly with a servo is possible.

Not quite. That video shows a free spinning output. Once the transmission is put under the load of a moving robot it will require a bit more force to shift, making servo shifting no longer shift on the fly.

[Dunngeon]

Originally Posted by Mike Marandola

I have heard that you are unable to shift on the fly because of that. Is that true?

Edit: Never mind. The Sonic Shifter video I posted higher in this thread shows that shifting on the fly with a servo is possible.

I'd imagine that when the gearbox is under-load it may be a different story. A free spinning wheel puts much less load on the dog-gear than a wheel tasked with accelerating a 120lb robot.

ANNND Andrew beat me to it

[Munchskull]

Andrew is competely correct. It takes more time. I personally would never recomened servos unless it was impossible to have pneumatics.

[Oblarg]

I have never met a single person who believed that shifting with servos was a good idea.

[Mike Marandola]

Originally Posted by Andrew Lawrence

Not quite. That video shows a free spinning output. Once the transmission is put under the load of a moving robot it will require a bit more force to shift, making servo shifting no longer shift on the fly.

Doh. That makes sense.

[asid61]

As far as custom gearboxes go, I like ball shifters better due to their decreased footprint (as there is no dog in between the gears) and their slightly decreased weight. See 192's 2014 gearbox for inspiration.
For COTS options, I believe the WCP 2-cim shifter is a good option due to small size and weight. Their 3-cim shifter is also quite good. I somewhat dislike the Vex options, because the 3rd stage makes the gearbox much larger and it takes up a lot of space to begin with. It's heavier as well.
On the other hand, the Vex version is enclosed, making it lower maintenance. And the space/weight cost isn't all that great.

I didn't see this answered above so:
Spread ratio is essentially the ratio between the high speed and low speed. So a gearbox made for 18fps and 6fps would have a spread of 18/6 = 3. A spread ratio of 3.

[chrisfl]

The charts for different ratio spreads on the vex website show loaded output FPS. What weight load is vex using? And does the load make a big difference if vex tested with a 100lb load and our robot is roughly 140lbs with bumpers and a battery? Would the weight difference change the speeds?

[Mike Marandola]

Originally Posted by chrisfl

The charts for different ratio spreads on the vex website show loaded output FPS. What weight load is vex using? And does the load make a big difference if vex tested with a 100lb load and our robot is roughly 140lbs with bumpers and a battery? Would the weight difference change the speeds?

Weight does have an effect on robot speed. The heavier it is, the slower it goes. You can use the WCP drivetrain calculator to experiment with different robot weights and speeds.