Introducing Revolution Pro...crab/swerve module

[ajlapp]

After 5 years of continuous production and successful competition, including a trip to Einstein in 2014...we've decided to re-visit our classic Revolution design and make improvements throughout.

Modules are listed on our website now and will be ready to ship in the near future.

See the product page here.

Also...a short video of a recent platform built with our classic modules and a RobotOpen control system.

[Bryce2471]

I think it's great to see the COTS options for swerve modules improving. I definitely thought the design of the old one was out of date.

Although...

Am I the only one who thinks both the new module and the new platform they built are disturbingly similar to designs I've posted here within the last year?!

I suppose I should be flattered that this is the second time someone used the general concepts from the designs I posted online. My intention in posting them, was that some might get inspiration or use the designs, but I didn't expect a company to start selling a design that is almost identical to the designs I developed...

[Aren_Hill]

Originally Posted by Bryce2471

I think it's great to see the COTS options for swerve modules improving. I definitely thought the design of the old one was out of date.

Although...

Am I the only one who thinks both the new module and the new platform they built are disturbingly similar to designs I've posted here within the last year?!

I suppose I should be flattered that this is the second time someone used the general concepts from the designs I posted online. My intention in posting them, was that some might get inspiration or use the designs, but I didn't expect a company to start selling a design that is almost identical to the designs I developed...

This is a very bold claim, you should do some research.

-Aren

[magnets]

Originally Posted by Bryce2471

I think it's great to see the COTS options for swerve modules improving. I definitely thought the design of the old one was out of date.

Although...

Am I the only one who thinks both the new module and the new platform they built are disturbingly similar to designs I've posted here within the last year?!

I suppose I should be flattered that this is the second time someone used the general concepts from the designs I posted online. My intention in posting them, was that some might get inspiration or use the designs, but I didn't expect a company to start selling a design that is almost identical to the designs I developed...

Can you specifically point out one design idea that is present in your design, the revolution swerve design, and no other previous swerve design?

The original revolution swerve (image) was based off of team 118's swerve and came out in 2009. Besides for switching to smaller wheels, using vex pro bevel gears, replacing the chain drive with gears, this shares all of its design ideas with the previous revolution swerve module.

[Scott Kozutsky]

I'm surprised that the wheel offset doesn't matter from a handling standpoint. I'm also a little concerned that when getting t boned the modules might flex and push the wheel into the bevel gear, they're really close together.

[Bryce2471]

Originally Posted by magnets

Can you specifically point out one design idea that is present in your design, the revolution swerve design, and no other previous swerve design?

My observation was more based on the large amount of optimizations that appear in my posted designs. Not on completely brand new ideas that have never been seen before.
1. It uses a small diameter solid treaded wheel.
2. The wheel is off set slightly to one side so it can be nested by the miter gear.
3. It utilizes straight cut gears instead of a chain to transfer power to the wheel.
4. It uses a dead axle to keep side plates light weight.
5. The wheel axle is a hallow stand off to increase the strength of the module and make replacing the wheel easy.

The platform in their video is the same way.
1. It uses a single extrusion upper frame.
2. It's CIM motor is behind the steering motor, in an in-line configuration.
3. CIM chain runs around the steering shafts to get to the main double shaft.

I'm not accusing them of stealing my ideas, or even taking inspiration from my designs. But if they did get some inspiration, it would be nice to get some recognition, and if they didn't, I want to point out that our designs are very similar.

[asid61]

It's nice that the new module still allows the CIM to be place facing upwards, even with 3.25" wheels.
Although I would have rather liked to see a cim-in-wheel swerve to replace the wild swerve for that price.

[JesseK]

1. It uses a small diameter solid treaded wheel. Design by Dillon et al, former teamate of Aren
2. The wheel is off set slightly to one side so it can be nested by the miter gear. [i]Not sure about this Winnovation either.
3. It utilizes straight cut gears instead of a chain to transfer power to the wheel. 118 talked heavily about this in 2009. At the time there were no cheap COTS gears when compared to direct-mounted sprockets. They recommend as much of a reduction AFTER the bevel gears as possible. However, see the link in #2.
4. It uses a dead axle to keep side plates light weight. I still have a teardrop plate that 118 handed out at 2009 Champs. It has a #10 hole for the axle because it was a 3/8" dead axle.
5. The wheel axle is a hallow stand off to increase the strength of the module and make replacing the wheel easy.See # 4

The platform in their video is the same way.
1. It uses a single extrusion upper frame. They aren't the first, I don't think you are either. So many teams did swerve in 2009 since the floor was extremely forgiving that many teams did this that year.
2. It's CIM motor is behind the steering motor, in an in-line configuration. Not an innovation
3. CIM chain runs around the steering shafts to get to the main double shaft. I dunno that they got inspiration from anyone so much as they realized it was a good idea from #2

Tough part is, swerve has been around a long time (2002 Thunderchickens?). The most popular/public teams over the years have been 16, 111 & 118. Nearly every design is a derivation of one of the two prior designs which are either coaxial or motor-on-module, and many designs go in similar directions simply because it's a good idea. If you applied the patent office's definitions for innovation, you'd be hard0pressed to find one that was non-obvious, or the next obvious logical iteration.

[Bryce2471]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Tough part is, swerve has been around a long time (2002 Thunderchickens?). The most popular/public teams over the years have been 16, 111 & 118. Nearly every design is a derivation of one of the two prior designs which are either coaxial or motor-on-module, and many designs go in similar directions simply because it's a good idea. If you applied the patent office's definitions for innovation, you'd be hard0pressed to find one that was non-obvious, or the next obvious logical iteration.

As I mentioned in my last post, I was not accusing them of any mal-practice. I was just pointing out the striking similarity to designs that I have posted here lately. I'm not trying to get any patents, or money, or anything. I was just making an observation.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Bryce2471

As I mentioned in my last post, I was not accusing them of any mal-practice. I was just pointing out the striking similarity to designs that I have posted here lately. I'm not trying to get any patents, or money, or anything. I was just making an observation.

Get over it (and yourself...)

All of the improvements seen have been fielded by many, many teams.

I could accuse you of stealing my teams design, and then 118 could turn around and accuse me of stealing theirs! So on and so on...

[Scott Kozutsky]

Some of the pictures on the product webpage don't seem to match the main product picture or the PDF. ( http://www.team221.com/upload/king_crab_detail.jpg )They apparently use the older revolution swerve design at least for this pic. (and I doubt that the new design would even work on this platform because it's so much shorter, no height for a CIM)

Also the PDF shows the input as 3/8 keyed shaft while the product picture ( http://www.team221.com/upload/revolution_pro.JPG) has a hex input.

Uploading a CAD model would explain these discrepancies I'm sure.

[Bryce2471]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Get over it (and yourself...)

All of the improvements seen have been fielded by many, many teams.

I could accuse you of stealing my teams design, and then 118 could turn around and accuse me of stealing theirs! So on and so on...

I never accused them of anything.
I just pointed out that their design is extremely similar to some that I posted.
here is a picture of one such design:
https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/...0b&oe=54D68A2A

[Pratik Kunapuli]

Originally Posted by Bryce2471

I never accused them of anything.
I just pointed out that their design is extremely similar to some that I posted.
here is a picture of one such design:
https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/...0b&oe=54D68A2A

The earliest photos you uploaded to Chief Delphi regarding anything swerve related was from August of this year. For 221 Robotic Systems to be producing this product now, that means that the design, testing, integration and final production of this module would've happened far before you posted your designs to CD. They did not in any way shape or form steal from you.

[Bryce2471]

Originally Posted by Pratik341

The earliest photos you uploaded to Chief Delphi regarding anything swerve related was from August of this year. For 221 Robotic Systems to be producing this product now, that means that the design, testing, integration and final production of this module would've happened far before you posted your designs to CD. They did not in any way shape or form steal from you.

I know that they didn't steal from me. I'm not sure why everyone thinks I'm accusing them of something. I have posted several times today, that I was never accusing them of anything.

11-14-2013, 11:38 PM
First post including CAD of a finished swerve:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...13&postcount=1

[AGPapa]

Originally Posted by Bryce2471

I know that they didn't steal from me. I'm not sure why everyone thinks I'm accusing them of something.

Because of this:

Originally Posted by Bryce2471

I suppose I should be flattered that this is the second time someone used the general concepts from the designs I posted online. My intention in posting them, was that some might get inspiration or use the designs, but I didn't expect a company to start selling a design that is almost identical to the designs I developed...