Go to Post That's why I have Fantasy FIRST. IT has to make up at least 75% of my posts here. - Koko Ed [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Technical Discussion
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 4 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-11-2014, 14:59
Monochron's Avatar
Monochron Monochron is online now
Engineering Mentor
AKA: Brian O'Sullivan
FRC #4561 (TerrorBytes)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Research Triangle Park, NC
Posts: 890
Monochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond repute
One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

This question has been asked many times before, so I will pose it in a slightly different way.

Say your team has a modest shop facility. You have most mid-range tools such as cordless drills, manual hand tools, calipers, jig saws, chop saws, drill press, band saw, grinders, and belt sanders. Basically, you can generally do small scale fabrication without a lot of precision. What is THE ONE tool/machine you would get to level up your shop?

I know the usual top two machines that get suggested but I want to ask, if you can only get one, what one should it be? Don't worry too much about price, anywhere from a couple hundred to a little over a thousand is reasonable.

Last edited by Monochron : 21-11-2014 at 15:17.
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-11-2014, 15:15
Bob Steele's Avatar
Bob Steele Bob Steele is offline
Professional Steamacrit Hunter
AKA: Bob Steele
FRC #1983 (Skunk Works Robotics)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Seattle, Washington
Posts: 1,511
Bob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond repute
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

Actually the next step I would take is some precision measuring tools. Calipers, depth indicators, etc.

A lathe would be the first machine tool I would recommend.
There are many uses and it does things that none of the hand tools and general tools can do. It is the first step towards precision. You can make many things from HDPE to serve as a low speed bearing. Shafts, spacers, etc etc.

It is not necessary to have a digital readout for the lathe (although it is nice if you can afford it)

It is often said that with a lathe you can make a mill. I wouldn't try it though.

Just remember that when you take the step toward machine tools you will need at least an equal budget for the "tools" that you will put in them as you do for the machine itself.

Good luck
__________________
Raisbeck Aviation High School TEAM 1983 - Seattle, Washington
Las Vegas 07 WINNER w/ 1425/254...Seattle 08 WINNER w/ 2046/949.. Oregon 09 WINNER w/1318/2635..SEA 10 RCA ..Spokane 12 WINNER w/2122/4082 and RCA...Central Wa 13 WINNER w/1425/753..Seattle 13 WINNER w/948/492 & RCA ..Spokane 13 WINNER w/2471/4125.. Spokane 14 - DCA --Auburn 14 - WINNER w/1318/4960..District CMP 14 WINNER w/1318/2907, District CMA.. CMP 14 Newton Finalist w 971/341/3147 ... Auburn Mountainview 15 WINNER w/1318/3049 - Mt Vernon 15 WINNER w/1318/4654 - Philomath 15 WINNER w/955/847 -District CMP 15 WINNER w/955/2930 & District CMA -CMP Newton -Industrial Design Award

  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-11-2014, 16:36
techhelpbb's Avatar
techhelpbb techhelpbb is offline
Registered User
FRC #0011 (MORT - Team 11)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,620
techhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

A manual milling machine probably used from someone that took care of it.
I often see them under $1,500 if you can find a way to move it.

While you search for that you might be surprised and end up with a lathe and mill for that price.

Watch Craigslist - there's a few Bridgeports right now in your price range in the Philadelphia and NJ areas and I searched the NC area and found several hits for around $1,000 for the term milling machine.

I've had a few cases where a skilled craftsman has this stuff at their home shop and is just trying to be rid of it for one reason or another. I've brokered whole Bridgeports with tools for at little as $400 in the past.
I have a ShopTask mill/drill/lathe in my garage that I got for $1,000 with 2 large tool boxes of tools and the CNC mounts.

Just make sure you understand what power is actually available in your shop (single phase, 3 phase, etc...)

Last edited by techhelpbb : 22-11-2014 at 00:41.
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-11-2014, 16:43
Ryan Dognaux's Avatar
Ryan Dognaux Ryan Dognaux is offline
FRC Video Review - Change is Coming
FRC #4329 (Lutheran Roboteers)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 2,673
Ryan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Ryan Dognaux
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

We invested in a horizontal band saw this off-season. So far we've found it's been much easier to get accurate cuts and the newer students seem to be a little more comfortable using it compared to the vertical or miter saw.

One thing I didn't see on your 'standard' list is an arbor press. Get an arbor press if you don't have one, makes pressing bearings so much easier.
__________________
Ryan Dognaux :: Last Name Pronounced 'Doane Yo'
Team 234 Alum: 2002 - 2005 :: Purdue FIRST Member: 2006 - 2009
Team 1646 Mentor: 2007 - 2009 :: Team 357 Mentor: 2009 - 2012
Team 4329 Mentor: Current
STL Off-Season Event: www.gatewayroboticschallenge.com
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-11-2014, 16:59
DonRotolo's Avatar
DonRotolo DonRotolo is offline
Back to humble
FRC #0832
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 6,979
DonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monochron View Post
anywhere from a couple hundred to a little over a thousand is reasonable.
That's not a big budget, frankly: This puts you in the very small hobbyist market or the used smaller machine market, at best. You can never tell, though: I've seen full-size (many-thousand-dollar) milling machines given for free because it is for robotics.

For your specific needs, I really can only be generic: I would need to see what you build now to identify from which capabilities you may best benefit. Maybe you can do this yourself, or enlist someone unfamiliar with your team (but familiar with machining or constructing things) to take a close look.

That being said: Well, the top 2 are there because they are the most useful.

Data point: At home I have a lathe and mill. I make a LOT more things with the lathe. I find that I can almost always make things that might have been milled...without the mill.

Data point: A lathe for $1k is no problem. A mill for $1k is iffy. Both include tooling.
__________________

I am N2IRZ - What's your callsign?
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-11-2014, 17:13
Mr. Mike's Avatar
Mr. Mike Mr. Mike is offline
Registered User
FRC #3138 (Innovators)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Vandalia, Ohio
Posts: 90
Mr. Mike is a name known to allMr. Mike is a name known to allMr. Mike is a name known to allMr. Mike is a name known to allMr. Mike is a name known to allMr. Mike is a name known to all
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

I have to put my vote for a mill. If the part can be held in a collet it can be turned in a mill with out much trouble. Trying to mill in a lathe take special attachments.
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-11-2014, 19:27
Dale's Avatar
Dale Dale is offline
Head Coach & Mentor
AKA: Dale Yocum
FRC #1540 (Flaming Chickens)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 499
Dale has much to be proud ofDale has much to be proud ofDale has much to be proud ofDale has much to be proud ofDale has much to be proud ofDale has much to be proud ofDale has much to be proud ofDale has much to be proud ofDale has much to be proud of
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

For piece of mind, it's hard to beat a Coldsaw as an upgrade from a chop saw. For $1,000 you can be assured that students would have to work REALLY hard to cut off a finger when cutting aluminum. The saw only turns at about 70 rpm and the material is firmly clamped.
__________________
2016 PNW Championship Chairman's; 2016 Winner Oregon City District, 2015 PNW Championship Chairman's; 2015 PNW District Engineering Inspiration; 2015 PNW District Finalist; 2014 PNW Championship Chairman's; 2014 Championship Innovation in Controls; 2013 Chairman's (Oregon); 2013 Finalist (OKC); 2012 Winner (OKC); 2012 Chairman's (OKC); 2012 Woody Flowers (Oregon); 2011 Volunteer of the Year (Oregon); 2011 Finalist & Captain (San Diego); 2011 Innovation in Control (San Diego); 2010 & 2007 Chairman's (Oregon); 2010 Regional Champions (Colorado); 2010 Innovation in Control (Colorado); 2009 & 2008 Engineering Inspiration (Oregon); 2008 Regional Champions (Oregon); 2007 Regional Finalist (Oregon); 2005 Rookie Inspiration (PNW)
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-11-2014, 19:56
techhelpbb's Avatar
techhelpbb techhelpbb is offline
Registered User
FRC #0011 (MORT - Team 11)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,620
techhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

I have one of these, pretty handy:
http://www.evolutionpowertools.com/us/build/rage3.php

It's got a special blade and the drive is geared.
Not quite cold saw RPM though.
It is around $300.
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-11-2014, 20:28
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,726
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

We did that last year, picked up a used Craftsman Atlas lathe for the shop. We've made some tweaks to it--it came without a cover for its belts, so we found a used one, picked up a new chuck for it, and one of the other mentors spent last weekend removing slop from one of the control handles. (It did come with a nearly complete tool set, too. That was nice.) It didn't take us more than a couple of weeks to put it to good use.

We're in about the same position you're in: Couple of bandsaws, welder, drill presses, grinder(s), table saw, plenty of hand tools, and now a lathe in one corner of the shop.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-11-2014, 21:39
asid61's Avatar
asid61 asid61 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Anand Rajamani
FRC #0115 (MVRT)
Team Role: Mechanical
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Cupertino, CA
Posts: 2,215
asid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

I high recommend a mill. We have a bridgeport and a low-power Jet lathe (it's barely decent). The mill sees work throughout the whole build season; you can mill gearbox plates, WCD siderails, hole patterns, and cut material to very precise lengths (given the measuring tools are at hand). We only used our lathe last year to cut spacers, and that can be done on a mill as well given round bar stock.
However, it does cost more to tool up a mill properly. You need endmills from 3/16" up to 1" diameter, holders for taps and dies, triangles, v blocks, parallels, a drill chuck for the mill, countersinks, and a few other thing you probably wouldn't have in the shop.

For $1000-$2000, you could pick up a used Bridgeport (or at minimum a medium sized mill, not a Harbor Freight) and tool it up properly. That would be a very useful thing to have.
A digital readout or long indicator is almost a must for drilling holes at spacings though. I highly recommend the former.
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-11-2014, 23:33
Monochron's Avatar
Monochron Monochron is online now
Engineering Mentor
AKA: Brian O'Sullivan
FRC #4561 (TerrorBytes)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Research Triangle Park, NC
Posts: 890
Monochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond reputeMonochron has a reputation beyond repute
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonRotolo View Post
That's not a big budget, frankly: This puts you in the very small hobbyist market or the used smaller machine market, at best. You can never tell, though: I've seen full-size (many-thousand-dollar) milling machines given for free because it is for robotics.
Yeah, I'm aware, but it is the budget we are working with. In fact our "shop" is really just an unused building with tables that our team built to support various donated used tools on top of them. As our program makes a bigger impact however, we attract sponsors and can start to make permanent improvements. Slow and steady improvements to quality facilities will be part of our path to success



So, a bit of a follow up question then. A couple of people have said that with additional tooling you can do many "mill tasks" with a lathe. Is it feasible to purchase a lathe now, and then over time step up the lathe to do a couple milling tasks? It wouldn't give us the machining power of a full mill, but we could make do with a little pain and extra effort? And it would satisfy the "one machine" part of the question.

I ask because, like I said above, I envision a gradual increase in our tool quality and abilities, not a big jump one year. Getting a cheaper tool that can do some of the things that a more expensive tool can do, may tide us over until we are able to step things up further.
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-11-2014, 00:39
asid61's Avatar
asid61 asid61 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Anand Rajamani
FRC #0115 (MVRT)
Team Role: Mechanical
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Cupertino, CA
Posts: 2,215
asid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monochron View Post
Yeah, I'm aware, but it is the budget we are working with. In fact our "shop" is really just an unused building with tables that our team built to support various donated used tools on top of them. As our program makes a bigger impact however, we attract sponsors and can start to make permanent improvements. Slow and steady improvements to quality facilities will be part of our path to success



So, a bit of a follow up question then. A couple of people have said that with additional tooling you can do many "mill tasks" with a lathe. Is it feasible to purchase a lathe now, and then over time step up the lathe to do a couple milling tasks? It wouldn't give us the machining power of a full mill, but we could make do with a little pain and extra effort? And it would satisfy the "one machine" part of the question.

I ask because, like I said above, I envision a gradual increase in our tool quality and abilities, not a big jump one year. Getting a cheaper tool that can do some of the things that a more expensive tool can do, may tide us over until we are able to step things up further.
If you do get a lathe, pick up a good condition used one on craigslist rather than buy new. A new lathe will cost many times more than a used one of similar size.

If nobody on your team knows how to use a mill or lathe, check your local community college for machining classes. They're fun and often times you can use the tools there anyway.
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-11-2014, 00:43
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,726
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

Quote:
Originally Posted by asid61 View Post
If nobody on your team knows how to use a mill or lathe, check your local community college for machining classes. They're fun and often times you can use the tools there anyway.
This. Back when I was in high school, I did this. A couple of times I saw another team whose members had also taken the class down working on parts; one of my classmates found the time to build a small part for his truck.

Do check the community college's policies, though, just to make sure.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-11-2014, 00:44
Chief Hedgehog's Avatar
Chief Hedgehog Chief Hedgehog is online now
Mentor
FRC #4607 (C.I.S.)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: May 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Becker, Minnesota
Posts: 540
Chief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond repute
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

Knee Mill - Bridgeport.

Call around to your local manufacturers. Ask if they can part with a mill in exchange for a sponsor-level.

We got a knee mill donated by Darter Plastics inc - a local manufacturer.

The company may find a way to rid themselves of an old piece of machinery that will become invaluable to your shop.
__________________

"An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it" ~JFK
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-11-2014, 12:48
Sam_Mills's Avatar
Sam_Mills Sam_Mills is offline
Registered User
FRC #4965 (FIRE)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Mount Olive, New Jersey
Posts: 47
Sam_Mills has a reputation beyond reputeSam_Mills has a reputation beyond reputeSam_Mills has a reputation beyond reputeSam_Mills has a reputation beyond reputeSam_Mills has a reputation beyond reputeSam_Mills has a reputation beyond reputeSam_Mills has a reputation beyond reputeSam_Mills has a reputation beyond reputeSam_Mills has a reputation beyond reputeSam_Mills has a reputation beyond reputeSam_Mills has a reputation beyond repute
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

For FRC use, definitely lathe>mill if for no other reason than how many COTS parts now are made for hex shaft.
__________________
2013 MORT 11: Captain/Driver 60 - 19 - 1
2014-current FIRE 4965: Engineering Mentor

ewcp 2013-current

If you argue with math, you are going to lose.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 15:01.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi