Wall 'o Boxes

[etoleb]

Although at first, I thought the wall of boxes would decide the winner for 90% of the matches, I'm beginning to change my mind. Even though a team can acquire 30+ boxes on their side, there's still a 5'3" neutral zone to consider, and any robot with a working drive train could "neutralize" the boxes while the opponent tries to stack (or attack the stack while the opponent defends the boxes). There is also the possibility of stealing boxes (assuming there is no problem crossing the ramp).

However, I've noticed several threads from scrimmages suggesting that stacking was generally unsuccessful. Thus I begin to wonder if the total number of boxes on an alliance's side had a major impact on the result of the matches. My impression from the other threads is that it was very difficult to perform any task with 3 other robots on the field...

So, I suppose the real purpose to this thread is what does everyone else see in this mess? To me, it seems like moving boxes after autonomous mode is more important that getting them in the beginning.

Greg
Team 891

[Hendrix]

at media day here in alabama, there were 5 or 6 teams there, and every match was won in the first 15 seconds, so i am still saying that is the case.

[etoleb]

Were the matches won because some robots were more complete than others? Or was it because teams were able to keep their bins in scoring position?

Greg
Team 891

[soezgg]

from what people are saying, the main wall will be the winner.

i hope that is not the case, as my team and many others have focused on stacking.

with stacking it is POSSIBLE for a team to win with 1/4 the amount of bins.

being a koth bot may be very successful, but stacking is just crazy and fun

i believe that the most successful teams will consist of one stacker and one koth bot.

anyway

[MikeDubreuil]

It really depends on who your opponents are...

If you hit the wall onto your side first and then you are able to hold the ramp, not allowing anything through. You will most likely win. However, you will not win if your opponents are stackers with the capability of dumping several boxes at a time over the bar. Then they simply push the boxes into their scoring zone and you lose.

If you do knock the stack onto your side it is important to push the boxes down the ramp so they will be in scoring position. The only benifet for leaving them on the ramp is to make it more difficult for a robot to come up at you.

Lets pretend your opponents are two tanks. Even if you have the stack in your scoring zone you better start stacking or you won't win. Your opponents will be able to dominate the ramp and get their 50 points. Granted, with a multiplier of 2 you will win. But what if one tank comes down and manhandles your stacking robots. Your opponent would end the match with 25 and you will have many bins in scoring position and hopefully win.

The more you run the numbers the more you see that the final alliances will comprise of a tank and a stacker. A very exciting game indeed. See everyone next week in Manchester!

EDIT______________

This is the first year where I think we might see rookies come up big in the finals.

[Yan Wang]

Yes, the stack does seem like it will win games.

However, in the videos I've seen, that is because the team who did not get the stack to their side did not have any good stackers... With a good stacker, you should be able to win with a small percentage of the boxes. It really just depends.

[JVN]

Originally posted by monsieurcoffee
Yes, the stack does seem like it will win games.

However, in the videos I've seen, that is because the team who did not get the stack to their side did not have any good stackers... With a good stacker, you should be able to win with a small percentage of the boxes. It really just depends.

Are you saying every stacker in every scrimage in the country is a "bad" stacker? You say it takes a "good" stacker to effectively do it, yet, from what I've heard... NO ONE stacked a box on top of another, at any of the scrimages...

How can this be?
Are there NO good stacking bots?

/me can't wait for BAE NH to see how this game really plays out.

[Madison]

Originally posted by JVN
Are you saying every stacker in every scrimage in the country is a "bad" stacker? You say it takes a "good" stacker to effectively do it, yet, from what I've heard... NO ONE stacked a box on top of another, at any of the scrimages...

How can this be?
Are there NO good stacking bots?

/me can't wait for BAE NH to see how this game really plays out.

Furthermore, if there are robots that can move bins in great quantity, they stand a very good chance of tipping the balance of the game.

Stacking, while it can be an important aspect of victory, isn't necessary. I wish we would've seen this element of strategy early on, but we're taking steps to rectify our oversight. I hope other people are doing the same.

[Yan Wang]

What i said was I have not yet seen a good stacker in the scrimmage videos that I have seen... read that carefully and don't make any assumptions.

Fact is, not so many teams went to scrimmages and most that did had not all complete robots. I expect things to be much better as the regionals progress. A stackers' game is still a wild card in this year's game.

[MBurr-Mecum]

We actually did stack one box on another two at the UTC scrimmage, but only once. We almost got three on top of the two, but the top two toppled as we were stacking them.

[Solace]

We can usually do a lot better than that, but we couldn't actually get our robot to turn at the scrimmage.

[etoleb]

How much ramming and abuse did the stacking robots take during the scrimages while trying to stack?

(Also, are any of the scrimage videos posted on the net?)

Greg

[pauluffel]

About moving boxes quickly, our robot is a launching bot (and yes, it does launch) but we don"t launch very far. Our current plan is to drag boxes behind us and go halfway under the bar, then launch the boxes over the bar into our scoring sone. We can also stack boxes (only 2 high, but multipliers are useful). Also, as I saw in a couple of scrimmages, the king of the hill bots can be repetatively rammed until a bit of their bot touches the mesh, so they"re worthless, but they still prevent people from moving boxes over the ramp. I think the most useful robots will be the ones that can get boxes over the bar somehow and can stack a bit and protect their stacks.

[sevisehda]

If you hit the wall and knock 29 boxes into your zone you have 2 advantages. 29 extra boxes and control of the ramp. The opposing team has to 1) remove boxes from your zone 2) get boxes into there zone 3) secure the ramp. The team who hit the wall first just has to defend. The opping team literally has to fight an uphill battle.

Saying that teams didn't stack well because bots were incomplete and drivers hadn't practiced yet is just copping out. The teams who ramp-domed and knocked down the walls first had the same amount of time to build/practice. This year stacking was more complex than ever, maybe to hard.


I'm going to base the following figuring alliances constructed for finals which include a ramp-dom and 2 low-riding stackers, (random bots in qualifying doesn't matter in the end)...

Scenario 1: Blue RampDom, Stacker vs. Red RampDom, Stacker

Auto: Blue rampdom hits the wall knocks it down lowers wings.
Blue stacker clears human player boxes.
Red rampdom is to slow to hit the wall.
Red stacker clears human player
Human: Blue ramp-dom fends of red ramp-dom. Red ramp-dom fights for hill or clears boxes. Red stacker try to move boxes over bar then stack. Blue stacker holds red stacker at the alley.
End: Blue gets 25 + any missed boxes.
Red gets little to none.

Scenario 2: Blue RampDom, Stacker vs. Red 2 stackers(there
rampdom was useless against blues last match).
Auto: Blue rampdom hits the wall knocks it down lowers wings.
Blue stackers clears human player boxes.
Red stacker heads to wall.
Red stacker clears human player.
Human: Blue rampdom holds ramp. Red stackers then clear the boxes out of blue zone and try to move them over the bar onto there side. Then they go under the bar and try to stack those boxes on there side. Blue stacker holds red stacker at the alley. A red bot could try to dislodge the ramp-dom but chances are they'd just waste there time.
End: Blue gets 25 + any missed boxes.
Red gets little to none.

In either scenario the team that loses the wall has a distinct disadvantage. They have to much to do in to little time. With the reports of how slow/difficult it is to stack i'd say theres little hope.

[GregT]

I see a few things missing from this thread:

1) The neutral zone (i know this was mentioned but not enough). Who cares about the ramp if you can go under the bar? Expecially stackers that go under the bar. Make your stack (probably 6 high will end up being a good stack). Try and defend that stack. If you lose it and dont have enough time to build another one, start getting nasty. Go under the bar and push opponent bins into the neut zone. Knock their stacks down.

My problem is with the destructive attitude of king of the hill bots. A game with no stacks is a low scoreing match. This is the first time something like this has been in a FIRST game since i've been involved. Last year there was no easy way to destroy a high scoreing game nearly as fast as there is this year.

2) The wall doesnt go only one way. We are talking about robots acting autonomous. They have problems correcting for mistakes (if any ability to at all) are clumsy, and generally not effective. I don't see a robot going up the ramp and preventing all robots from getting by with bins. I suspect the bins to go pretty much 50/50 every match.

3) A tank bot is not neccissarily more powerful then a stacking robot. You catorize stackers as weak... almost all FIRST robots are friction limited. Stackers can gain a 10 - 20 lb weight advnatage easy; possibly upwards of 40lbs. Assuming your talking about robots with tracks, they do worry me (wheeled robots can't gain a sufficient advantage over other wheeled robots).

I know this doesn't describe all tracked robots, but in general they tend to be slower and less manuverable then wheeled ones. They have an advantage only on the carpet, no advantage on the HDPE.

4) I dont see how you can expect to hold the HDPE. You have less traction then robots coming up the mesh AND your being acted on at an unfavorable angle. Think about it.

Just my thoughts
Greg