Go to Post I told myself I'd stay out of the obsession this year, but I couldn't resist... - Grant Cox [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 7 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 16:16
ehochstein's Avatar
ehochstein ehochstein is offline
Coach, Volunteer & Mentor
AKA: Evan Hochstein
FTC #5943 (ESGM)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Bloomington, Minnesota
Posts: 933
ehochstein has a brilliant futureehochstein has a brilliant futureehochstein has a brilliant futureehochstein has a brilliant futureehochstein has a brilliant futureehochstein has a brilliant futureehochstein has a brilliant futureehochstein has a brilliant futureehochstein has a brilliant futureehochstein has a brilliant futureehochstein has a brilliant future
[FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...Manual-Release

Quote:
We want to tell you about some software downloads that are available to you right now that can help you be ready for Kickoff.

First, in an effort to help you get up and running after Kickoff as quickly as possible, here are instructions to on how to download and install the programming environments for 2015 in LabVIEW and C++/Java.

As a reminder, these downloads are only for the general programming environments. The 2015 FRC specific plug-ins will be made available, encrypted, prior to Kickoff. Watch the blog for more!

Second, this year we’ve moved in a different direction with the way we distribute the Manual to teams. Along with the FIRST Lego League, we’ve partnered with Adobe to use their Digital Publishing Suite to create and distribute the Manual. For now, there are two ways you can get the 2015 Administrative Manual, by downloading the PDF or by downloading the “FIRST Official” app available on both iOS and Android. We'll roll out the iPad app first to confirm functionality, then the Android and iPhone versions. We’re also working with Adobe to implement a content viewer to replace the online viewing option of the frc-manual.usfirst.org page used for the last few years.

Some Key Changes in the Administrative Manual

I’ll admit that normally the Admin Manual isn’t exactly a page turner, but we’ve got some new stuff this year, some changes more serious, some more intended to get rid of nuisances for teams.

On the serious side –

Please see Section 6.4. Chairman’s Award presentations may now be up to seven minutes long, but total time with the judges will still max out at 10 minutes, so please keep in mind a longer presentation likely means less time for direct judge interaction. Also, we are eliminating the Chairman’s feedback form. We’ve heard from teams that many do not find them helpful – some teams even complaining that they addressed all the issues the judges raised on their last feedback form, but still were not selected. This suggests a ‘checkbox’ approach to the award, which is not what we are looking for at all. You will find a subtle change in the manual that is an attempt to start addressing this – instead of saying teams ‘win’ the award, we now say teams ‘earn’ the award, which is closer in spirit to our beliefs about this most prestigious of all FRC awards.

We recognize, though, that it is still valuable for teams to understand how they did in comparison to others. So, for the first time, we are asking teams that earn the Chairman’s Award at events to later share their Chairman’s video, along with a video of a practice presentation, with FIRST, so we may post it publicly. In addition to these videos, we will be posting the written submissions these teams made. We know we have not asked teams to record their presentations before, but we hope teams earning this award would be eager to share their presentations with others, so all can benefit. The practice presentation videos do not need to be edited to add titles or any other embellishments – a straight single camera shot capturing the practice presentation is fine. Teams should plan to capture their practice presentation before or after the presentation they make to the judges, not during. Taken together, these three elements – Chairman’s video, presentation video, and written submission - should give aspiring teams a good idea of ‘what it takes’.

Also please take a look at Section 6.6. We are taking a related approach to Dean’s List interviews this year as we are with Chairman’s. Interview time is being extended to be up to seven minutes long, up from five minutes maximum last year. Also, Judges will not be providing written feedback. In place of written feedback from judges, a mentor of the student will be allowed to be present to silently witness the interview. The mentor can then provide feedback on the interview skills of the student at a later time. As mentors know the student better than the judges do, we feel this feedback is potentially more valuable.

On the less serious side –

Team banners. Check out Section 4.12.4. We’re removing the restriction - which honestly had been sometimes loosely enforced, depending on event - preventing you from hanging them in the arena. Have fun, show your pride, but be safe and respectful.

And my personal favorite on the less serious side- check out Section 4.2.2 about robot carts, specifically this bullet point:

Do not add music or other sound-generating devices to the cart, with the exception of devices of reasonable volume intended to be activated occasionally to make others in the direct vicinity aware that a robot is on the move for safety purposes

Reading between the lines – you can stop yelling ‘Robot’ to let others know you have a robot on the move. Please. And you can go nuts with adding sounds to your carts for safety purposes. As long as you go nuts in a controlled, responsible way.*

Frank

*Please think less air raid siren, more cowbell. We don’t want this change to lead to new nuisances. Any sounds you add should be just loud enough to get the job done, without being annoying.
Noteable items:
  • Teams will no longer recieve Chairman's or Dean's List Feedback forms
  • One mentor is able to watch Dean's List interview
  • Chairman's award winners are asked to record and post their interview presentation
  • You no longer 'win' awards, you 'earn' them.
__________________
Minnesota FIRST Senior Mentor | 2013-?

Stratasys Applications Engineering Technician | 2016-?

2009 Regional Win – 2470 @ 10k Lakes (Thanks 2826 and 1714)
2013 WFFA Recipient – 2470 @ 10K Lakes
2016 Ri3D: 'Snow Problem Reveal
2017 Ri3D: 'Snow Problem Reveal

The opinions expressed above are the personal opinions of the author and do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of any organization the author is affiliated with.
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 16:21
kjohnson's Avatar
kjohnson kjohnson is offline
Insert Clever Title Here
AKA: Kyle J.
FRC #1610 (BOT)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 575
kjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRC Blog
Reading between the lines – you can stop yelling ‘Robot’ to let others know you have a robot on the move. Please.
This makes me happy.
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 16:30
AllenGregoryIV's Avatar
AllenGregoryIV AllenGregoryIV is offline
Engineering Coach
AKA: Allen "JAG" Gregory
FRC #3847 (Spectrum)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,555
AllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to AllenGregoryIV
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

Quote:
Originally Posted by nukemknight View Post
This makes me happy.
Except now we get beeps and things. I am not sure this is any better.

Also I liked the Chairman's feedback form, it helped us from our first event to our second. If done well I believe those forms could really help teams figure out what they are missing.
__________________

Team 647 | Cyber Wolf Corps | Alumni | 2003-2006 | Shoemaker HS
Team 2587 | DiscoBots | Mentor | 2008-2011 | Rice University / Houston Food Bank
Team 3847 | Spectrum | Coach | 2012-20... | St Agnes Academy
LRI | Alamo Regional | 2014-20...
"Competition has been shown to be useful up to a certain point and no further, but cooperation, which is the thing we must strive for today, begins where competition leaves off." - Franklin D. Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 16:30
Michael Hill's Avatar
Michael Hill Michael Hill is offline
Registered User
FRC #3138 (Innovators Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 1,575
Michael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

Quote:
Originally Posted by nukemknight View Post
This makes me happy.
"And you can go nuts with adding sounds to your carts for safety purposes."

This doesn't make me happy...or at least it won't make me happy while at the events. I know some team is going to put some stupid sound on their cart and go obnoxious with it. Also, someone take the hammer out of my hands before their "get out of the way" horn gets some much needed percussive maintenance.
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 16:31
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
TSIMFD
AKA: Sean Lavery
FRC #1712 (DAWGMA)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 6,625
Lil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Lil' Lavery
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiifi View Post

Noteable items:
  • Teams will no longer recieve Chairman's or Dean's List Feedback forms
Disclaimer: I have yet to read the Admin Manual.

Reaction: This is a step in the wrong direction. I get that the feedback form is flawed, but feedback is a positive thing.
Personally, I know I took great pride as both as high school student and as a mentor whenever we received feedback forms loaded with "currently strong" marks even if we didn't win the award. I also got a lot out of the comments, both in terms of where we can improve as a team and where we can strengthen our submissions.

Transparency in terms of submissions is another issue altogether, and doesn't really compare to the feedback forms. Requiring teams publish their submissions/presentations is not a replacement for feedback on your submission.
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 16:33
Anthony Galea's Avatar
Anthony Galea Anthony Galea is offline
Formerly known as 3175student17
no team
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Riverview, Michigan
Posts: 583
Anthony Galea has a brilliant futureAnthony Galea has a brilliant futureAnthony Galea has a brilliant futureAnthony Galea has a brilliant futureAnthony Galea has a brilliant futureAnthony Galea has a brilliant futureAnthony Galea has a brilliant futureAnthony Galea has a brilliant futureAnthony Galea has a brilliant futureAnthony Galea has a brilliant futureAnthony Galea has a brilliant future
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

Quote:
Also, we are eliminating the Chairman’s feedback form. We’ve heard from teams that many do not find them helpful – some teams even complaining that they addressed all the issues the judges raised on their last feedback form, but still were not selected
I really don't like this change. Our team was brand new to Chairman's presenting last year, and the feedback form's comments helped our team improve in general, within Chairman's and team structure in general. I understand that teams may be complaining about their non-selection (which really is not what a Chairman's team should be doing, from what I understand. I read something like this in the WF Award thread, and I'll modify it for Chairmans: A true Chairman's team would be motivated to become a better team from seeing another team win, not grumble about losing), however, teams that are new to Chairman's might like the feedback so they can improve their presentation and team.
__________________
2013-2016: FRC 3175 Knight Vision, student
2014 Center Line District Finalists with 815 and 280
2016 Woodhaven District Winners with 3604 and 6116
2017-?: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 16:39
Andrew Lawrence
 
Posts: n/a
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

A friend on facebook said it better than I ever could have:

Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 16:40
AllenGregoryIV's Avatar
AllenGregoryIV AllenGregoryIV is offline
Engineering Coach
AKA: Allen "JAG" Gregory
FRC #3847 (Spectrum)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,555
AllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to AllenGregoryIV
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

For people who may not have seen a Chairman's feedback form. We uploaded both of ours from last season here.

I do like the move back to a real PDF manual, that makes me happy. I was never a fan of the online system or the PDFs it produced.

Also getting rid of the banner restriction was a good call, I think that is something that should be decided venue to venue.
__________________

Team 647 | Cyber Wolf Corps | Alumni | 2003-2006 | Shoemaker HS
Team 2587 | DiscoBots | Mentor | 2008-2011 | Rice University / Houston Food Bank
Team 3847 | Spectrum | Coach | 2012-20... | St Agnes Academy
LRI | Alamo Regional | 2014-20...
"Competition has been shown to be useful up to a certain point and no further, but cooperation, which is the thing we must strive for today, begins where competition leaves off." - Franklin D. Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 16:56
AustinShalit's Avatar
AustinShalit AustinShalit is offline
Registered User
AKA: אוסטין
no team (WPILib Suite Developer)
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Los Angeles/Worcester/Israel
Posts: 134
AustinShalit is a glorious beacon of lightAustinShalit is a glorious beacon of lightAustinShalit is a glorious beacon of lightAustinShalit is a glorious beacon of lightAustinShalit is a glorious beacon of lightAustinShalit is a glorious beacon of light
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

Something notable not in the blog post is section 4.9.2:
Quote:
4.9.2 Pit Manners/Rules during the Ceremonies
■ No more than five members in an individual pit
■ Team members will not be allowed to use power tools, hammers, or other noisy tools during the ceremonies
■ All persons in the Pit should observe the code of behavior for the presentation of all national anthems:
• Maintain a respectful silence;
• Stand, facing the flag. If there is no flag, look toward the video screen showing a flag; and • Hats off please.
Is this a step in the right direction?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 17:02
wilsonmw04's Avatar
wilsonmw04 wilsonmw04 is offline
Coach
FRC #1086 (Blue Cheese)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Midlothian, VA
Posts: 1,887
wilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond reputewilsonmw04 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

Wow, I mean wow! I have been saying for years that FRC needs to provide MORE feedback to the teams regarding how they are doing. Now they are taking away the only real feedback that any team gets?? This is beyond silly. FIRST, please read this and make the feedback form better. Don't remove feedback from the system. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE change this before week 1 events.
__________________
Currently: Coach FRC 1086/FTC 93
2006-2011 Coach FRC 2106/FTC 35
If you come to a FRC event to see a robot competition, you are missing the point.
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 17:21
MrTechCenter's Avatar
MrTechCenter MrTechCenter is online now
INTENSITY
AKA: Harsharan "Harsh" Dhaliwal
FRC #2073 (Eagleforce)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 559
MrTechCenter has a brilliant futureMrTechCenter has a brilliant futureMrTechCenter has a brilliant futureMrTechCenter has a brilliant futureMrTechCenter has a brilliant futureMrTechCenter has a brilliant futureMrTechCenter has a brilliant futureMrTechCenter has a brilliant futureMrTechCenter has a brilliant futureMrTechCenter has a brilliant futureMrTechCenter has a brilliant future
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

I'm also disappointed that they're getting rid of the feedback forms. While I never actually got my Dean's List feedback....I really liked seeing the Chairman's feedback, after collecting a few year's worth, you can easily see that the team has improved each year and it's really useful in figuring out what your team is doing right and what you need to work on. I'll admit, the feedback isn't always the most helpful, but taking it away entirely is not the answer.
__________________
2011 Sacramento Regional Finalists; 2011 MadTown Throwdown VIP Excellence in Engineering Award; 2012 Sacramento Regional Innovation in Control Award; 2012 Silicon Valley Regional Judges' Award; 2012 CalGames Autonomous Challenge Award; 2012 MadTown Throwdown Finalists; 2013 P0W3RH0U53 PWNAGE Gracios Professionalism Award; 2014 Central Valley Regional Innovation in Control; 2014 Sacramento Regional Innovation in Control; 2014 Curie Division Gracious Professionalism Award; 2015 Sacramento Regional Innovation in Control
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 17:27
Conor Ryan Conor Ryan is offline
I'm parking robot yacht club.
FRC #4571 (Robot Yacht Club)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Midtown, NYC
Posts: 1,895
Conor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release


Section 4.2.2. + Reading Between the Lines =
A
M E N !
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 17:34
Joe Ross's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Ross Joe Ross is offline
Registered User
FRC #0330 (Beachbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,571
Joe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinShalit View Post
Something notable not in the blog post is section 4.9.2:
Only thing new there is the 5 person limit.
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 17:38
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is offline
no bag, vex only, final destination
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #0228 (GUS Robotics); FRC #2170 (Titanium Tomahawks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 7,707
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Ross View Post
Only thing new there is the 5 person limit.
More importantly, they explicitly state that more than zero people can officially be in the pit. Long overdue.
__________________
Mentor / Drive Coach: 228 (2016-?)
...2016 Waterbury SFs (with 3314, 3719), RIDE #2 Seed / Winners (with 1058, 6153), Carver QFs (with 503, 359, 4607)
Mentor / Consultant Person: 2170 (2017-?)
---
College Mentor: 2791 (2010-2015)
...2015 TVR Motorola Quality, FLR GM Industrial Design
...2014 FLR Motorola Quality / SFs (with 341, 4930)
...2013 BAE Motorola Quality, WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182)
...2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / SFs (with 2168, 118)
Student: 1714 (2009) - 2009 Minnesota 10,000 Lakes Regional Winners (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2014, 17:42
Michael Hill's Avatar
Michael Hill Michael Hill is offline
Registered User
FRC #3138 (Innovators Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 1,575
Michael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [FRC Blog] Software Downloads and Administrative Manual Release

Is it just me or can you not zoom in on the iOS app for the manual? If not, that's terrible.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:21.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi