Would you like End Game back?

[MrTechCenter]

When Aerial Assist was first released, I was pretty upset that there was no end game, but once competition season came around, I understood why no end game was a good idea. The end game has always been, "Who designed their robot to score these extra points and who didn't?" and you could do very little to stop the opposing alliance from scoring those points if they were capable of doing so. With this year, especially in elims and at stacked competitions, there were often instances where alliances had to hold the opposing alliance from scoring a (often assist-loaded) ball to win the match and there were times when this won critical matches. To me, this is more exciting than an endgame where either the alliance gets bonus points, or they don't.

We tried to create a sort-of endgame for Capital City Classic this year, and it consisted of placing a "special" ball (the trackball from Overdrive) on top of the truss, and teams could knock it off of the truss with a shot or a human player could throw the Aerial Assist ball at the trackball to knock it off (although this would not result in truss points if the Aerial Assist ball made it over the truss). Whichever alliance had the ball completely in their alliance's zone at the end of the match earned a ten point bonus. While the endgame was not a core part of the competition, there were instances where alliances fought over the ball and the result decided the match.

I believe that end games like this, where the two alliances have to fight for the bonus points and only one alliance or neither alliance will earn the points, are much more exciting to watch.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by MrTechCenter

With this year, especially in elims and at stacked competitions, there were often instances where alliances had to hold the opposing alliance from scoring a (often assist-loaded) ball to win the match and there were times when this won critical matches.

Or lost them... I distinctly remember calling one of those. One alliance pulled a pin with about 10 seconds left in the match, 3 robots pinning one robot with a triple-assist ball that was heading for the high goal. (Oh, and this was the rubbermatch of that series--winner went to semifinals.) 3 different refs were signalling pin, but no robots backed up at all before the end of the match, even after a flag went up. The final score had a 42-point differential in favor of the pinned team.

[Connerd]

Well, everyone's put in valid and logical reasons for or against the Endgame.
I'm for the Endgame, just because, IMHO, it allowed greater team specialization. For instance, in 2013, teams could choose to be shooters, defense bots, climbers, or any combination. This allowed teams to choose a role that fit their team's philosophy, allowing them to learn more. In 2014, teams basically were told to shoot or block, with some wiggle room. I just guess I didn't like how we had to think harder to come up with our eventual strategy.

[Anupam Goli]

I've always felt that the endgames that don't have anything to do with the main intended objective of the game shouldn't have a place on the field. (2009 is the latest year that I remember had an end game with an objective similar to the regular teleop period). having no end game in 2014 was kind of a breath of fresh air. It created some intense matches that went down to the wire, and there was no clear winner until the end.

I also think FIRST hasn't been able to nail a good end game down properly. 2012 had the best end game in elims, but other than that, they were either undervalued or overvalued. In 2013, you could potentially score more disc points with a simple 10 pt buzzer beater hang and hurling frisbees all match instead of climbing for the 30. In 2011, the minibots were way overvalued, and guaranteed that whoever had a faster trigger finger would win the match, even if they didn't fill the rack up. In 2010, not many teams attempted climbs because on the onset it was only worth as much as 1-2 goals. And in 2009, trading an empty cell for a supercell almost never happened since there wasn't enough time to put the supercell back into play and score.

Maybe if FIRST can come up with a good endgame that is somewhat related to the game played in teleop, and is pretty balanced for the effort it takes, then it would be a good reintroduction of the endgame.

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

I've always felt that the endgames that don't have anything to do with the main intended objective of the game shouldn't have a place on the field. (2009 is the latest year that I remember had an end game with an objective similar to the regular teleop period). having no end game in 2014 was kind of a breath of fresh air. It created some intense matches that went down to the wire, and there was no clear winner until the end.

I'll second this sentiment. I thought the lack of endgame is one of the reasons 2014's game was such a fantastic game to watch.

[cmrnpizzo14]

I really like there being an endgame, or at least another way to score. I feel that the best games were the ones that had 3 separate components (autonomous, teleoperated, and endgame usually) and the alliance that could win 2/3 of these components would win the match. I feel that this way nothing is too over or underrated.

For example, in 2011 the minibots were worth a lot but if you couldn't at least hold pace with the other alliance during auton/teleop then you just wouldn't be able to overcome the points they scored with the logos they would form. Same in 2012 with the bridges. A triple was worth 40 points and a good hybrid was roughly 30 (I know it's not perfect but that was pretty good for an alliance). With 70 points from hybrid and the endgame you could have won most games but if you fell behind in hybrid then you were going to have a battle ahead of you to come back in that match.

[SenorZ]

In a 3v3 game endgame scoring schemes add an extra dimension to play. In Aerial Assist only two robots were active in any assist, so the third was either playing D or waiting for an inbound.
Bringing back an end game allows a third robot to choose between defense or bonus scoring in the final seconds.

[AndreaV]

I don't know if you can call it an endgame, but 2005's "tic tac toe" tetra game element was an interesting challenge.

For those unfamiliar the tetra goals were placed 3 x 3 so that from above, it was like a game of tic-tac-toe with the red or blue tetras on top being the X or O. It lead to the center goal becoming paramount and there was usually a rush at the end to break a row of 3 by topping strategic goals. This was essentially de-scoring, but all the placed tetras still counted for 3 points. While it wan't an alternative way to score (like 2013's 10 pt hang) it was points that were counted at the end, and could determine the outcome of a match.

It was sort of an endgame,but the intended endgame was to have all 3 robots back in front of the driver station and behind a line. the actual end game took away from the main game, and only rewarded a measly 10 points. I wouldn't mind seeing it not included.


FRC has come a long way since 2005 when I started, and the quality of robots has gone up drastically thanks to Vex and Andymark. I would love to see a similar game mechanic with today's robots.


2007 had a similar thing with the rack.. but that was messy.

[headlight]

Originally Posted by AndreaV

I don't know if you can call it an endgame, but 2005's "tic tac toe" tetra game element was an interesting challenge.

<snip>

I like the idea of an "inline" endgame, essentially raising the stakes/scoring near the end of the game or in a certain time frame.

An interesting 2014 endgame might have been that a ball is worth 20 points if it is launched before the buzzer and touches the ground on the opposite side of the truss after the buzzer. It would also be the only time a ball is allowed to be scored over the truss twice.

[Jefferson]

I'm itching for an autonomous endgame.

Who's with me?

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Jefferson

I'm itching for an autonomous endgame.

Whose with me?

I think it's a very cool idea if done right.

[Jefferson]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

I think it's a very cool idea if done right.

That's true for any endgame, but it's definitely more difficult to "get right" if it's autonomous. A lot of variables to consider in robot/game piece position/heading.

It could add so much additional strategy to the end of teleop. There is also the opportunity for some real autonomous defense that is entirely absent most years.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by AndreaV

It was sort of an endgame,but the intended endgame was to have all 3 robots back in front of the driver station and behind a line. the actual end game took away from the main game, and only rewarded a measly 10 points. I wouldn't mind seeing it not included.

And I can't even think of ONE match where that was attempted, let alone completed. Everybody was playing the alternative: Score more, go for rows/disruption of rows.

[Briansmithtown]

Sometimes endgames are god. But recently it seems more and more teams build robots to compete for the endgame, and just sit on the field for 2 minutes waiting for the funky noise to play. Very boring, too bland.

[g_sawchuk]

I would hate to have an autonomous end game for one. Do you know how much time some teams would spend lining up their robot via remote control for that. It would definitely take away from the actual game. A robot with lots of sensors that can self navigate and tell itself what to do when would win that best as no prep would be needed for the autonomous end game. Imagining hard coded autonomous end game robots. I assume their would be more robots running into each other than usual for that, messing up their programs for sure. A robot could only be successful with that relying solely on sensors. It would be a challenge.