FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff

[cgmv123]

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...before-kickoff

Here are a few things we want to make you aware of before Kickoff.

Share Your FIRST Stories: You’ve Got Them, We Want Them!

Do you have a story about how FIRST has made a positive impact in your life? We’re calling all student participants, Mentors, Coaches, parents, and Volunteers to share their experiences.

These stories will be used in many different ways- from FIRST promotional content, to the opportunity to be showcased at the FIRST Championship in St. Louis. For more information and to submit your story, please visit the Share Your FIRST Stories Website. We can’t wait to hear from you!

Founder’s Broadcast

You are invited! The Founder’s Reception is a night for FIRST to thank and celebrate our amazing mentors, hosted by FIRST Founder Dean Kamen. However, many mentors never get to experience this event first hand. This year, we’re bringing the event to you! Friday, January 2, 2015, starting at 7:00 PM EST the FIRST community can tune into a live broadcast from the Founder’s Reception. Hear from veteran and rookie mentors about their expectations for the upcoming season and FIRST sponsors about why it’s important for them to be involved. We’ll also have a special “last night before Kickoff” interview with FRC Director Frank Merrick, where he’ll release some new details about the 2015 FRC Season! Don’t miss it. Tune in at this link: http://www.streamingmeeting.com/webc...IRST_Founders/.

Post Your Designs

This is the only rule we’ll tell you ahead of time:

R13 Software and mechanical/electrical designs created before Kickoff are only permitted if the source files (complete information sufficient to produce the design) are available publicly prior to Kickoff.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by cgmv123

R13 Software and mechanical/electrical designs created before Kickoff are only permitted if the source files (complete information sufficient to produce the design) are available publicly prior to Kickoff.

I'm glad to see that this rule is no longer ex post facto.

[Thad House]

If the rest of the manual is like the new R13, it is going to be so much nicer. Simpler and clearer is the way to go.

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

I'm glad to see that this rule is no longer ex post facto.

Now teams have only 3 days (one of which is a holiday) to make a decision and act on a rule released prior to kickoff (which has never been done before), without knowing the game? But we have a week during build season to do our window shopping on FIRST Choice....

Some teams may want to make a decision about open-sourcing their past designs only after the new game is announced, and I don't in any way fault them for that. It's strategic, and is not uncommon in the business world. But now, the new rule makes it a philosophical decision instead of a strategic one, which I'm not necessarily in favor of.

Also, what constitutes "publicly available?" If it's not posted, but you (or anyone else) ask for it, and I e-mail it to you, is that publicly available? If I post it at some obscure link online that no one will ever find, but is not behind any sort of password or restriction, is that publicly available? What if I sat in front of the grocery store next to the girl scouts selling cookies, and I had a table full of free flash drives with our robot files on it?

[Greg Needel]

R13 Software and mechanical/electrical designs created before Kickoff are only permitted if the source files (complete information sufficient to produce the design) are available publicly prior to Kickoff.

The really interesting thing about this, is what is the definition of "complete information sufficient to produce the design" I could see an argument that if someone just posts a .step file of their CAD designs that is not enough, as it doesn't have the mfg tolerances required to produce it. Yes, it will get you 95% of the way there, but still not necessarily enough to produce the designs.

I doubt this will ever actually become an issue, but the way that it is worded could open the doors to some debates.

[aldaeron]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

The really interesting thing about this, is what is the definition of "complete information sufficient to produce the design" I could see an argument that if someone just posts a .step file of their CAD designs that is not enough, as it doesn't have the mfg tolerances required to produce it. Yes, it will get you 95% of the way there, but still not necessarily enough to produce the designs.

I doubt this will ever actually become an issue, but the way that it is worded could open the doors to some debates.

I would see a STEP without a Bill of Materials as incomplete.

You would also need some sort of Drawing with notes or Assembly procedure. How would I know from a STEP if something is a press fit for example?

-matto-

[D.Allred]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

... What if I sat in front of the grocery store next to the girl scouts selling cookies, and I had a table full of free flash drives with our robot files on it?

I'll take a flash drive and a box of Thin Mints please!

David

[Travis Schuh]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Now teams have only 3 days (one of which is a holiday) to make a decision and act on a rule released prior to kickoff (which has never been done before), without knowing the game? But we have a week during build season to do our window shopping on FIRST Choice....

I don't see how R13 this year is that much different than last year, except more explicit and clearer. How would you be able to use a design that met the 2014 rule but didn't meet the now stated 2015 rule?

2014 R13:

ROBOT elements created before Kickoff are not permitted. ROBOT elements, including software, that are designed
before Kickoff are not permitted.

Exceptions include the following:
D. software and designs with source files publicly available prior to Kickoff.

For reference, 2013 R16.

2013 R16

ROBOT elements, including software, that are designed or created before Kickoff are not permitted, unless they are
publicly available prior to Kickoff.

I think there is a clear trend that teams can make a reasonable plan based off of. I see the blog more as a polite reminder with time to act, rather than a change of course. I appreciate the reminder.

[Pault]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Now teams have only 3 days (one of which is a holiday) to make a decision and act on a rule released prior to kickoff (which has never been done before), without knowing the game? But we have a week during build season to do our window shopping on FIRST Choice....

Some teams may want to make a decision about open-sourcing their past designs only after the new game is announced, and I don't in any way fault them for that. It's strategic, and is not uncommon in the business world. But now, the new rule makes it a philosophical decision instead of a strategic one, which I'm not necessarily in favor of.

Also, what constitutes "publicly available?" If it's not posted, but you (or anyone else) ask for it, and I e-mail it to you, is that publicly available? If I post it at some obscure link online that no one will ever find, but is not behind any sort of password or restriction, is that publicly available? What if I sat in front of the grocery store next to the girl scouts selling cookies, and I had a table full of free flash drives with our robot files on it?

This is not a new rule.

Originally Posted by 2014 FRC Game Manual

ROBOT elements created before Kickoff are not permitted. ROBOT elements, including software, that are designed
before Kickoff are not permitted.
Exceptions include the following:
A. BUMPERS,
B. OPERATOR CONSOLE,
C. battery assemblies per R5-A, and
D. software and designs with source files publicly available prior to Kickoff.

Emphasis mine.

All Frank is doing is telling us that this rule is still there, reminding us that it exists, and clarifying it.

If teams could release the design after kickoff, that would defeat the purpose of this rule. It exists to encourage teams to share their experience and help make the entire FRC community stronger at building robots. If a team is down for doing that, then they should release all of their previous CAD and code for everybody to use (or at least the stuff that they think will be useful). If not, than they don't get to enjoy the benefits of using it themselves. There should be no trying to manipulate the system and only making things public to benefit your team.

[magnets]

If you wanted to, you could release toolpaths for some nonstandard CNC machine that nobody has that would cut out your parts. Technically, it's enough information to make the part. Then, you could put this information on a computer in the middle of the woods in a public park. Finally, you could put assembly instructions together, save them as a word perfect file, upload it to google drive, and post the link to that google drive document in the middle of a 10,000 page pdf document on one of your team's websites with hundreds of thousands of fake links.

That is obviously not the intent of the rule.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Now teams have only 3 days (one of which is a holiday) to make a decision and act on a rule released prior to kickoff (which has never been done before), without knowing the game?

It's better then 2014 and earlier years when a very similar rule was released at kickoff, at which point it was too late to take advantage of it.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by aldaeron

I would see a STEP without a Bill of Materials as incomplete.

You would also need some sort of Drawing with notes or Assembly procedure. How would I know from a STEP if something is a press fit for example?

-matto-

are we jumping the shark here? We are going to be posting our files shortly. Feel free to ask questions, but you are really asking a lot from folks, considering we don't do real drawings for our build team! ;-)

[Electronica1]

So is a step file good enough? Or do we need to post assembly instructions and part drawings (so a team without cad could read it)?

Hypothetical question, if we haven't actually finished the design, should we just post what we have?

(I know that this isn't official, but I couldn't think of anywhere official I could ask before kickoff)

[Travis Schuh]

With teams required to release designs before re-using them, I bet there are a lot of designs (both CAD and code) out there that are great resources, but not well publicized. A lot of top teams re-use drive base designs from year to year with minimal change, so I would expect to see a lot of drive bases out there, but I don't know where to look.

Is there a way to link this stuff into TheBlueAlliance similar to how robot photos are now linked? I don't think it makes sense to re-host everything, but a central searchable place that points to all the appropriate places would be very nice.

[Greg Needel]

Originally Posted by Travis Schuh

With teams required to release designs before re-using them, I bet there are a lot of designs (both CAD and code) out there that are great resources, but not well publicized. A lot of top teams re-use drive base designs from year to year with minimal change, so I would expect to see a lot of drive bases out there, but I don't know where to look.

Is there a way to link this stuff into TheBlueAlliance similar to how robot photos are now linked? I don't think it makes sense to re-host everything, but a central searchable place that points to all the appropriate places would be very nice.

www.frcdesigns.com ?