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Unread 03-01-2015, 23:50
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

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Originally Posted by jtrv View Post
In what world do you live in where you would get punished for not following the unwritten "agreement" between a couple alliances during qualifying matches?

Seriously. If you break it, so what. Sure some people will be upset and might not pick you. But you acted in your self interest, you want to win. That's the entire nature of competitive plays. To win.
There is nothing wrong with not wanting to go along with TNA. If a team doesn't want to do it, they don't want to do it. That's fine. It's another thing though to give 5 other teams your word that you are going to do along with something and then not do it. Sure the team might be acting in their own self interest in the long run but most teams I know don't want to be known as lairs.

Edit: For the record, I don't actually like TNA and I hope there is a rule change. Nevertheless, it is a very legitimate strategy for teams to do.
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Unread 03-01-2015, 23:56
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

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Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb) View Post
There is nothing wrong with not wanting to go along with TNA. If a team doesn't want to do it, they don't want to do it. That's fine. It's another thing though to give 5 other teams your word that you are going to do along with something and then not do it. Sure the team might be acting in their own self interest in the long run but most teams I know don't want to be known as lairs.

Edit: For the record, I don't actually like TNA and I hope there is a rule change. Nevertheless, it is a very legitimate strategy for teams to do.
Yes, but there are people in this thread that act like if one person on your alliance agrees to it, youll be burned at the stake if you don't do it. Come on people. Nothings going to happen if you break it. You'd be silly to trust someone in a competition setting, no matter how much FIRST encourages "coopertition."

Tell me how coopertition would work if your team didn't get any benefits, only the opposing team, and each alliance had to fulfill an individual task.

(the "you"s are not directed at the quoted poster, rather the people going nuts in this thread about breaking it. i'd probably get in trouble for naming and shaming here though.)
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Unread 04-01-2015, 00:05
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

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Originally Posted by jtrv View Post
Yes, but there are people in this thread that act like if one person on your alliance agrees to it, youll be burned at the stake if you don't do it. Come on people. Nothings going to happen if you break it. You'd be silly to trust someone in a competition setting, no matter how much FIRST encourages "coopertition."
If I heard similar statements from a driver or key decision maker, I most likely wouldn't even consider picking them. From a purely competitive stand point, if you have proven you do not follow agreed upon strategies, I cannot trust you on my alliance.
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Unread 04-01-2015, 00:12
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

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Originally Posted by XaulZan11 View Post
If I heard similar statements from a driver or key decision maker, I most likely wouldn't even consider picking them. From a purely competitive stand point, if you have proven you do not follow agreed upon strategies, I cannot trust you on my alliance.
A lot of teams have ideal alliances very early on Saturday. Sometimes on Friday night. Of course, these alliances are never final and are incredibly subject to change.

If you act in your self interest, is that suddenly a bad thing? What? Since when, did I miss a memo?

I would argue if they break it, then it proves they are strongly in favor of winning. Wouldn't you want a team who wants to win?
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Unread 04-01-2015, 00:16
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

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Originally Posted by jtrv View Post
A lot of teams have ideal alliances very early on Saturday. Sometimes on Friday night. Of course, these alliances are never final and are incredibly subject to change.

If you act in your self interest, is that suddenly a bad thing? What? Since when, did I miss a memo?

I would argue if they break it, then it proves they are strongly in favor of winning. Wouldn't you want a team who wants to win?
that brings up the question then, do you want a team driven to win for themselves? or have a team who can work well with all teams and wont backstab you later on for personal gain?
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Unread 04-01-2015, 00:20
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

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Originally Posted by MikLast View Post
that brings up the question then, do you want a team driven to win for themselves? or have a team who can work well with all teams and wont backstab you later on for personal gain?
Why would you backstab your alliance during elims...?

Elims are what matter people. Getting #1 seed doesn't win you the regional. It doesn't give you anything but first pick.
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Unread 04-01-2015, 00:34
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

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Originally Posted by jtrv View Post
Why would you backstab your alliance during elims...?

Elims are what matter people. Getting #1 seed doesn't win you the regional. It doesn't give you anything but first pick.
Well. different teams have different goals.

My team, for example, has never made it to the finals. ever. For us, seed is the only thing that has mattered, and the goal for us this year is to simply be good enough to get to the finals.

So. sure, the noodle agreement does not help you when your team can manage to build a robot that can earn the maximum theoretical score solo with a minute to spare, but for the rest of us, optimizing our team's effort and scoring potential by abiding by the noodle agreement will be very useful.
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Unread 04-01-2015, 00:52
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

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Originally Posted by pbhead View Post
Well. different teams have different goals.

My team, for example, has never made it to the finals. ever. For us, seed is the only thing that has mattered, and the goal for us this year is to simply be good enough to get to the finals.

So. sure, the noodle agreement does not help you when your team can manage to build a robot that can earn the maximum theoretical score solo with a minute to spare, but for the rest of us, optimizing our team's effort and scoring potential by abiding by the noodle agreement will be very useful.
we've made it to finals twice in 7 years, and they came in 2012 and 2013. we lost both. (maybe 1 more time in 2008-2009, i'm not sure)

i don't know where you're getting the idea that i'm on a super elite amazing team. we're an average team. we've had great years, we've had bad years. 2013 was incredible for us, 2014 was meh. 2011 was not great, 2012 was pretty good.

I believe that seed number is not the only factor going into what alliance # you will be on. In fact, it's FAR from the BIGGEST factor. 2012, we were seeded in the 30s. We got picked for #3 alliance. Our own team was surprised, except for a select few who was showing the teams what we could do despite our poor ranking.

I don't mean to sound rude, but seeding should not be your primary goal, it should be performance that you can show statistics and strategy about to other teams and convince them you are a good pick. And then back up your argument on the field.
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Unread 04-01-2015, 00:55
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

Why not just make TNA, then deposit one noodle and wait to see if the other human player deposits one? If you both do then start alternating the deposit until they're all gone. If you wait for the other person to do it and act quick you can still do it in under ten seconds, five if you both get going quickly. If the opposing team doesn't deposit the first one, all you did was give them 4 points and can now tell other teams about their backstabbery and quickly start throwing those foamy pieces of negotiation to the other side of the field.

I scrolled through 4 or 5 pages on this thread to check and see if anyone mentioned it, if they did I'm sorry :c
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Unread 04-01-2015, 01:00
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

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Originally Posted by Yipyapper View Post
Why not just make TNA, then deposit one noodle and wait to see if the other human player deposits one? If you both do then start alternating the deposit until they're all gone. If you wait for the other person to do it and act quick you can still do it in under ten seconds, five if you both get going quickly. If the opposing team doesn't deposit the first one, all you did was give them 4 points and can now tell other teams about their backstabbery and quickly start throwing those foamy pieces of negotiation to the other side of the field.

I scrolled through 4 or 5 pages on this thread to check and see if anyone mentioned it, if they did I'm sorry :c
And this is why agreements like this are risky. If ONE PERSON (or team, or alliance) does not want to uphold their end, they can theoretically take down the whole thing.

My overall position: Whatever you choose to do, make sure that 1) you make your position clear, either by accepting (or making) or declining an offer, and 2) if everybody accepts the offer, hold up your end. And if the other alliance doesn't hold up their end? Let's just say that how long they're off your picklist for is up to you. (And... if you're a top 8 team and they pick you, you could always decline.) Word will get around, even if it isn't from your team.
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Unread 04-01-2015, 02:00
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Smile Re: The Noodle Agreement

Just he fact that the possibility that TNA (and if not ammended by a GDC adjustment soon, or eventually, & very hopefully IMHO, before competition begins, since at least 2 great suggestions have already been mentioned in this thread alone, to negate any possible 6 team 2 alliance TNA effect like the +2Blue-2Red scoring, instead of +4Blue), & that it is an early day 1 strategy idea being discussed, and even a real issue on Kickoff day 2015...Has made me absolutely chuckle out loud all day today watching it build and be discussed, after the storm clouds and extensive discussion here not all that many months ago over another "6 Team/2 Alliance agreement" (that affected absolutely nobody except those 6 specific teams), that was done in the Finals at the Phoenix Regionals last year.

That was a healthy and hearty debate w/ many different views....But, this would be a game strategy "TNA," that if any 6 teams did go that way at any time....Almost everyone else would be forced to do so, as the QA points would quickly get away from those that did not agree, and the rest of the field gets left in the dust.

And yes, given the name of the game itself, it sure would seem contrary in "Recycle Rush", to leave all that trash round after round by agreement, "intentionally unrecycled" on both ends of the field constantly.

But, the rules are the rules, game strategy is, and must be worked up within the rules, and the rule currently allows and favors TNA as a very viable strategy and rewards it w/ high fairly guaranteed points for all 6 teams on the field for that particular game element using TNA as an agreed strategy.

Let us just hope the GDC sees this thread and adjusts the rules to easily just negate any possible "TNA being used as a continual strategy" that could cause the gumming up of the entire 2015 FRC Community, and possibly affect teams well into the future also. That fix of +2~-2=TNA benefit results of zero points (instead of +4~+4), would do so very easily.

And "The 2015 Day 1 Noodle Conspiracy" would be "Nothing but Trash on day 1" & therefore, the very idea of TNA would be "fully recycled!"

FIRST GDC, please highly consider to IMMEDIATELY RECYCLE that rule (actually a minor tweak, as the unrecycled trash would still maintain a total -4 point value as GDC designed, and should be a relatively fairly easy software scoring fix I'd think). PLEASE?

To do otherwise will or could fairly often force unintended coopertition that you may not have fully meant to design into this particular game. (Who knows...it may have been highly discussed there also by the GDC? They are a very smart group).
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Unread 04-01-2015, 02:09
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

OK...Now.....Any way that CD can add a "TNA Green Noodle" Smilie over there on the right------------------------------------------------------->
LOL! <-----I'm just going to use that 1 for now to denote the way I felt all day chuckling about this thread, and the existing designed rules and situation, that the added game play element (unresolved trash), created. Too much.
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Unread 04-01-2015, 00:59
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

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Originally Posted by jtrv View Post
we've made it to finals twice in 7 years, and they came in 2012 and 2013. we lost both. (maybe 1 more time in 2008-2009, i'm not sure)

i don't know where you're getting the idea that i'm on a super elite amazing team. we're an average team. we've had great years, we've had bad years. 2013 was incredible for us, 2014 was meh. 2011 was not great, 2012 was pretty good.

I believe that seed number is not the only factor going into what alliance # you will be on. In fact, it's FAR from the BIGGEST factor. 2012, we were seeded in the 30s. We got picked for #3 alliance. Our own team was surprised, except for a select few who was showing the teams what we could do despite our poor ranking.

I don't mean to sound rude, but seeding should not be your primary goal, it should be performance that you can show statistics and strategy about to other teams and convince them you are a good pick. And then back up your argument on the field.
i think he meant during the matches, when the #8 seed faces against the #1 seeded teams, usually having the #8 seeded teams destroyed by them, this happened to us last year at our district comp at Ellensburg, our #8 seeded alliance losing by about 70ish points to the #1 seeded alliance, and im sure other teams have had this also.
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Unread 04-01-2015, 01:14
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

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Originally Posted by MikLast View Post
i think he meant during the matches, when the #8 seed faces against the #1 seeded teams, usually having the #8 seeded teams destroyed by them, this happened to us last year at our district comp at Ellensburg, our #8 seeded alliance losing by about 70ish points to the #1 seeded alliance, and im sure other teams have had this also.
yes, but thats going away this year. at least the bo3 stuff. you can still advance even if you lose all 3 games.
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Unread 04-01-2015, 02:11
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Re: The Noodle Agreement

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Originally Posted by Ether View Post
Team B doesn't lose points. Their opposing alliance gains points.


This is not true. fouls decrease your own score. 3.1.3. This was a change for 2015.
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