Tote Bot vs. Container Bot?

[Shaffer]

My team is debating whether it would be more useful to build a robot that can stack totes or place containers on top of totes.

It seems like a good "container bot" might be picked by an alliance captain in the finals because of its specialty.

However, the "container bot" doesn't seem like it will be very useful on its own (especially if it's randomly paired with no tote-stacking robots), and if it can't stack the container accurately well... mmm... not so good.

I figure there will probably be lots of good "tote bots" (maybe for good reason), so "container bots" might find a niche.

Thoughts?

[Jeffy]

I think most bots that are tote-bots can become tote + container bots with a few small modifications.

[tStano]

Container bots can get points on their own, assuming they're decent at their job.

They can push a tote into a scoring zone without a "tote manipulator"(possibly a stack of 2 straight from the human player). They can also have a driving alliance partner do this. They can then get litter from a human player, which is possible, as shown here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH0Gv2w8l0E

Then they can stack that container on top of the crate(or stack of 2 crates). This 'stack' is worth 12 points, 18 points if its 2 totes high. You could conceivably do this 7 times in a qualification match(if you get all containers from middle(which I imagine you'd start doing in auto), which is an appreciable number of points, 84 or 126. Depending on the efficiency of a tote bot(and the efficiency of a container bot), this could be more points than a tote bot in a match. Their 'stack'(with 1 tote, container, and litter) is worth as much as a 6-high stack. With 2 totes, they're doing even better.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Jeffy

I think most bots that are tote-bots can become tote + container bots with a few small modifications.

I think a really efficient tote-bot is probably going to be a pretty inefficient container bot. A good tote-bot is going to be carrying several totes, and many mechanisms like that aren't going to modify easily into container movers.

Also, since my team has taken to calling the containers "recycling bins", we're calling these two options "Totes Ma Goats" and "Mercedes Bins". We're still looking at our feasibility for both designs at the moment.

[Dunngeon]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I think a really efficient tote-bot is probably going to be a pretty inefficient container bot. A good tote-bot is going to be carrying several totes, and many mechanisms like that aren't going to modify easily into container movers.

Also, since my team has taken to calling the containers "recycling bins", we're calling these two options "Totes Ma Goats" and "Mercedes Bins". We're still looking at our feasibility for both designs at the moment.

I disagree, I believe they aren't mutually exclusive for excellence. However, I don't think converting a tote-stack bot to tote+bin bot is as simple as a few small modifications.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Dunngeon

I disagree, I believe they aren't mutually exclusive for excellence. However, I don't think converting a tote-stack bot to tote+bin bot is as simple as a few small modifications.

I wholeheartedly agree that an efficient tote+bin bot is possible, and I suspect there are a few dozen teams working on the design right now. It just that you have to pursue that integrated design up front, not as an add-on/patch later. Next time I'll add more weasel words than just "probably" and "many mechanisms".

[wilderbuchanan]

Originally Posted by Jeffy

I think most bots that are tote-bots can become tote + container bots with a few small modifications.

I 100% agree. the width of the can is 18" and width of tote is 17" so making either 1 arm that can pick up both or 2 arms that are interchangeable seems pretty easy.

[Rangel]

By Container Bot, I assume it's a robot that is designed to also grab the 4 middle containers during auto or at the start of teleop. A robot designed and programmed to do this as well as stack the containers is a lot less likely to have efficient tote stacking. There will be very few teams that have both since it's a lot harder for these bots to win a regional. Even at the finals of a regional, a container specialist won't be incredibly useful until more than 3 stacks are made. I think tote+container robots will be a lot more common than a few dozen teams but these teams will probably not be able to go for the 4 middle recycling containers.

[Skyehawk]

I've been struggling with this as well, container bots have what I would like to call ''the perfect niche'' but long ago my team accepted the reality that in order to win regionals you needed to be the scoring team. With defensive menuvers nullified this year d the introduction of Qualification Average being a scoring not is more important than ever. You all have to be able to hold your own. And while the highest scoring natchs might include a container not there is no guarantee that every match will be a perfect match-up for you. The QA needs to be kept up if you are planning on picking, and I don't see container bots managing to do that.

[RunawayEngineer]

Originally Posted by tStano

Container bots can get points on their own, assuming they're decent at their job.

They can push a tote into a scoring zone without a "tote manipulator"(possibly a stack of 2 straight from the human player). They can also have a driving alliance partner do this. They can then get litter from a human player, which is possible, as shown here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH0Gv2w8l0E

Then they can stack that container on top of the crate(or stack of 2 crates). This 'stack' is worth 12 points, 18 points if its 2 totes high. You could conceivably do this 7 times in a qualification match(if you get all containers from middle(which I imagine you'd start doing in auto), which is an appreciable number of points, 84 or 126. Depending on the efficiency of a tote bot(and the efficiency of a container bot), this could be more points than a tote bot in a match. Their 'stack'(with 1 tote, container, and litter) is worth as much as a 6-high stack. With 2 totes, they're doing even better.

With those kinds of numbers, I can see a very successful Alliance having 2 stacking robots and 1 Bin robot. The Bin machine will spend the match grabbing bins, placing Litter in them from the HP slot (directly or indirectly), placing the Bin either on a stack or out of the way (until a stack is ready), and repeating.
I think that this would fill out the match time for an average capability robot and add some decent points.
Operating on its own without the ability to lift totes at all, this machine could make 12 point stacks (pushing 1 tote up and placing a Littered Bin on top), which is (probably) easier than the equivalent 6-tall Tote stack.
Pro: A one trick pony is easier to optimize
Con: Dependent on other stackers for full potential; dependent on the # of Bins available
I think that a robot that can perform those tasks reliably will probably seed lower than the consistent Tote stackers, but would be valuable in Playoffs.

[MrForbes]

Without having tried to design a robot yet, my feeling is that a combination robot that can make small stacks, but reliably put a container upright on any stack, would get you further than a robot that can only make tall stacks, but not put a container on those tall stacks.

It won't be easy.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Skyehawk

I've been struggling with this as well, container bots have what I would like to call ''the perfect niche'' but long ago my team accepted the reality that in order to win regionals you needed to be the scoring team. With defensive menuvers nullified this year d the introduction of Qualification Average being a scoring not is more important than ever. You all have to be able to hold your own. And while the highest scoring natchs might include a container not there is no guarantee that every match will be a perfect match-up for you. The QA needs to be kept up if you are planning on picking, and I don't see container bots managing to do that.

It really depends on your team's capabilities and goals, and the makeup of your regional. If you can build a bot that can carry multiple totes and a recycle bin all at once and stack them quickly, then congrats. You're in or near the 254/1114/etc. level of design and building. Your bot can address most of the game challenges and you should do well if everything works fast enough.

If your capabilities limit you to a single tote + bin or multi-tote only robot, then you have to look at your goals and the make up of your regionals. We're figuring on seeing a fair number of bin-only or super multi-tote+bin robots, so we're looking at being a really good multi-tote robot in a supporting role, and falling back to a 2-crate+bin robot if the multi-tote prototyping doesn't pan out.

[The_ShamWOW88]

Originally Posted by Jeffy

I think most bots that are tote-bots can become tote + container bots with a few small modifications.

I think container bots can become tote bots in the same fashion...

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

I see it this way:
a tote bot isn't worth much on its own (12 pts max) but a container bot also isn't worth much alone either (no points if not on tote, only 10 pts if container/litter on 1 tote). Either to single function bots need to work together or you need to be able to handle both (more complicated).

[mac]

Hold on boys and girls. Mentor Mac here. You all about to have a cow. Have you every gone fishing with a pole? Have you every roped a horse with a rope? How much of a footprint do you think a one inch shaft, pole, rod, square tubing, etc. is going to take. Slam your fiberglass rod/pole on top. Some motors, a few pulleys and/or eye outlets, and rope. Done. Now you go fishing, hooking, snaring, or rope a dope. Come on all boys and girls. I know what your thinking. You got some kinda metal transformer arm coming out to get this green bin. Come on gents and ladies. K.I.S.S. Any robot. All robots. Big and small robots. Slow and fast robots. Etc. Can and should put the K.I.S.S. on there BOT. Every one! Can play the whole game period.
God Bless and be safe