Tote Bot vs. Container Bot?

[Dunngeon]

Originally Posted by mac

Hold on boys and girls. Mentor Mac here. You all about to have a cow. Have you every gone fishing with a pole? Have you every roped a horse with a rope? How much of a footprint do you think a one inch shaft, pole, rod, square tubing, etc. is going to take. Slam your fiberglass rod/pole on top. Some motors, a few pulleys and/or eye outlets, and rope. Done. Now you go fishing, hooking, snaring, or rope a dope. Come on all boys and girls. I know what your thinking. You got some kinda metal transformer arm coming out to get this green bin. Come on gents and ladies. K.I.S.S. Any robot. All robots. Big and small robots. Slow and fast robots. Etc. Can and should put the K.I.S.S. on there BOT. Every one! Can play the whole game period.
God Bless and be safe

I don't find the system you're describing simple, effective, or able to to play the game.

[Canon reeves]

Originally Posted by MrForbes

Without having tried to design a robot yet, my feeling is that a combination robot that can make small stacks, but reliably put a container upright on any stack, would get you further than a robot that can only make tall stacks, but not put a container on those tall stacks.

It won't be easy.

I originally thought this as well, but then I realized that if a container bot just put all the bins with litter onto atleast one grey tote, the good tote bot on the team could just lift that and cap their own taller stack with it. It would be difficult to stack a container on a tote stack of 4 (because of the height constraint), if the robot grabbed the container from the top lips that is. But it would be very easy for the container bot to put a container on top of two totes spit out by the human player, and then let the tote bot place it. I wrote a portion of my reasoning for container bot for my team, so here is that.

With three different shaped game elements, this game provides an opportunity to be stellar in one particular shape, and be very valuable to the alliance. Without a doubt top tier teams will have an effective tote stacking robot, some of them making even 6 high stacks. To perfectly compliment their abilities for a maximum score possible, a team would need to be able to put a recycling container on a stack at least two high, maybe even one high. If we were to be able to put a recycling bin on a stack at least two high consistently, we would undoubtedly be picked for eliminations. Figure One shows the different point values for the different combinations of stacks.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/41100?
Figure One
As you can see, just stacking on a two tote stack with a litter inside would give us 18 points, then if another team could stack that on another two stack tote, we would get a total of 30 points. With the three given bins, we could get at least 60 points a match just by having one robot on our alliance that can stack totes two high.
If we only had push bots on our alliance, we could score at least 18 points. This is possible because of two benefits from the feeder station. One, that the human player can stack two crates, with a slight bump of the first one from the robot. The other is that the human player can manipulate the litter into a recycling bin. Combine these two and you could have one push bot go to a feeder station and create a stack of two, then the other push it to one of the scoring platforms. Our robot will pick up one of the pre placed bins, go to the feeder station, and receive a pool noodle, then place the whole stack on the stack made by the kitbots. This could be repeated several times to gain 36 points using our preplaced bins.
Our main focus is eliminations, being picked by the right teams, and this year there are no shortage of advanced teams at our regional. If we are able to stack four bins with litter on totes consistently, we would without a doubt get picked. If we were on an alliance with an elite team capable of scoring totes at least four high, we would be able to score more than 120 points, and all we would have to do is put the recycle bin with litter on top of a grey tote since the tote bot can top his stack with a tote with a recycle bin already on it.
In elims, we could start by facing our bin on the left side of the field, then driving forward and picking up the bin, then backing all the way up into the auto zone. As soon as the match begins, we drive forward and load a litter into our bin, raise the bin, the human player puts out a tote, we set our bin with litter on top of the tote. We then drive to get the next bin, bring it to the human player, repeat the process, and then grab our third bin, repeat. Finally, we would go to the step and pick up a fourth bin, and if we have time take it to the feeder station and load it with litter, then place it on a tote. Every time we place a bin on a tote, we are relying on our alliance member to pick up the tote and either move it or score it. Unless we adapt our forklift to be able to lift both totes and recycle bins, which wouldn’t be hard because totes are several inches longer than the bins, so we could pick the totes up long ways without interfering with our main priority, the bins.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Canon reeves

I originally thought this as well, but then I realized that if a container bot just put all the bins with litter onto atleast one grey tote, the good tote bot on the team could just lift that and cap their own taller stack with it. It would be difficult to stack a container on a tote stack of 4 (because of the height constraint), if the robot grabbed the container from the top lips that is. But it would be very easy for the container bot to put a container on top of two totes spit out by the human player, and then let the tote bot place it.

I don't see this happening....moving around a two tote stack with a container on top requires very careful, slow maneuvering, and if the container doesn't fall off, it will eat up a lot of time. Although if you have a design for a robot that can do it quickly, I'd love to be proven wrong.

[philso]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Also, since my team has taken to calling the containers "recycling bins", we're calling these two options "Totes Ma Goats" and "Mercedes Bins".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qev-i9-VKlY

Are you going to name your robot "Janis"?

[Canon reeves]

Originally Posted by MrForbes

I don't see this happening....moving around a two tote stack with a container on top requires very careful, slow maneuvering, and if the container doesn't fall off, it will eat up a lot of time. Although if you have a design for a robot that can do it quickly, I'd love to be proven wrong.

Maybe so, I'm unsure, I haven't been able to test it any, but if it isn't possible there won't stacks with 6 totes and a recycle container. I think it's more feasible if the container is just on one tote that is placed near the stack for the container bot to put it on, then the tote bot lifts it and puts it on top of the desired height, if it takes less than 30 seconds it could be worth it depending on the stack. If you had one robot that primarily stacked, another that placed the container on totes, and another that stacked the totes with containers on the stacks, you would have a pretty efficient and competitive alliance.

Here is Ri3D team greenhorn doing it with three, they moved relatively slow, but with two or one it would be even quicker. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6iuWBKRj4Q#t=206

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Canon reeves

If you had one robot that primarily stacked, another that placed the container on totes, and another that stacked the totes with containers on the stacks, you would have a pretty efficient and competitive alliance.

You sure would! But in real life, I don't see that happening in any of our qualifying matches at the regionals we're attending. I'm pretty sure we're going to need to be able to at least make short stacks, and put a container on top of them ourselves, if we want to be one of the teams picking an alliance.

[Skyehawk]

After some testing last night our team found that a stack of 6 totes is relatively stable. The container on top however... different story, but not impossible to move around. With a sturdy (and robust) mechanism, stacks of 6 totes + container + noodle shouldn't be that far out out of the reach of most teams. This is provided that teams demonstrate patience and good planning.

[Canon reeves]

Originally Posted by MrForbes

You sure would! But in real life, I don't see that happening in any of our qualifying matches at the regionals we're attending. I'm pretty sure we're going to need to be able to at least make short stacks, and put a container on top of them ourselves, if we want to be one of the teams picking an alliance.

Very understandable, I feel like this will be the situation at most regionals. At the very least if you had two push bots you could score a few 18 point stacks with some coordination from the team. Luckily the diameter of the Recycle Container is less than the length of a tote, so a passive forklift at two different hieghts would allow easy manipulation of both, but you couldn't stack the totes as high, but you could at least maybe two.

Best of luck this season!

[jtrv]

Originally Posted by mac

Hold on boys and girls. Mentor Mac here. You all about to have a cow. Have you every gone fishing with a pole? Have you every roped a horse with a rope? How much of a footprint do you think a one inch shaft, pole, rod, square tubing, etc. is going to take. Slam your fiberglass rod/pole on top. Some motors, a few pulleys and/or eye outlets, and rope. Done. Now you go fishing, hooking, snaring, or rope a dope. Come on all boys and girls. I know what your thinking. You got some kinda metal transformer arm coming out to get this green bin. Come on gents and ladies. K.I.S.S. Any robot. All robots. Big and small robots. Slow and fast robots. Etc. Can and should put the K.I.S.S. on there BOT. Every one! Can play the whole game period.
God Bless and be safe

does anyone have a clue what this guy is talking about, or is he insane?

you can easily do a tote + container system. i came up with it at reveal and i've tested it and it works.

convincing my team is another story.

[KPSch]

Originally Posted by jtrv

does anyone have a clue what this guy is talking about, or is he insane?

you can easily do a tote + container system. i came up with it at reveal and i've tested it and it works.

convincing my team is another story.

Questionable grammar aside, Mentor Mac's advice is sound. All he's suggesting is, be careful that you don't build a robot that is more complex than it needs to be for a given task.